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Thread: General Discussion - legitimacy/succession

  1. #1
    Kevin Myers Guest

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    What does everyone think about Stanley Pranin going after the illegitimate Daito-Ryu practitioners on the Aikido Journal web site?

  2. #2
    Justin Campbell Guest

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    Glad to see someone trying to weed out the fakes. It is amazing how many fakes there are out there ... and it is hard to find the truth.

    JJ Campbell

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    I think that Stanley Pranin has the right, just as everyone else has, to ask these questions concerning this Daito-ryu branch but I think in so doing he has incited a lot people will ill manners to post on their board. This secretary, Kobayashi, is trying to answer the questions that are put to him respectful and disregarding ones that are not. I think we should be a little more concerned with how we conduct ourselves and our OWN training than someone elses.

    When an individual from a certain dojo or style post disrespectful comments concerning another branch or style, what does that say about that persons school/style? Should we even be concerned with this? What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students?

    My two cents worth...

    Greg Noble

  4. #4
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    Mr Noble,

    You stated:

    "What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students? "

    To answer your question, standing up for the truth is exactly the attitude that I as a dojo cho wish to portray to my students. One of the responsabilities of being an instructor or especially a dojo cho is to speak up and expose those who commit such fraudulent acts as those demonstrated by the individuals in question. To sit quietly by while allowing persons such as these to mislead the public is little better than endorsing such behavior.

    I especially respect Stan for stating his mind on this and I personally posted on their bulletinboard immediately upon receiving a personal letter concerning this situation from Mr Pranin. I would hope when presented with blatant fraud that you would stand for the truth and be counted as well. To bad so many in society today shirk from such responsability, I feel it is a form of passive cowardice.

    Toby Threadgill,
    Soryushin Dojo, Dojo Cho

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
    [B]Mr Noble,

    You stated:

    "What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students? "

    "To answer your question, standing up for the truth is exactly the attitude that I as a dojo cho wish to portray to my students. One of the responsabilities of being an instructor or especially a dojo cho is to speak up and expose those who commit such fraudulent acts as those demonstrated by the individuals in question. To sit quietly by while allowing persons such as these to mislead the public is little better than endorsing such behavior."

    Although I agreed that students/instructors should stand up for the truth, if I spent 50% of my time (which is probably about right in my area!) investigating and exposing fraudulent acts in the budo community I would have 50% time left for my students/budo. Then I have to ask myself, "Who am I to judge another style or instructor?" (aka "Budo police")

    "I especially respect Stan for stating his mind on this and I personally posted on their bulletinboard immediately upon receiving a personal letter concerning this situation from Mr Pranin. I would hope when presented with blatant fraud that you would stand for the truth and be counted as well. To bad so many in society today shirk from such responsability, I feel it is a form of passive cowardice."

    I also respect Stan Pranin for stating his mind. I was most impressed when he wrote an editoral concerning the All Japan Aikido Demonstrations several issues back. But I can't help feel that Mr. Pranin is launching a campaign against this group and he is clearly in the Kondo sensei camp. It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them.
    Personally, I have no feeling toward either group since I do not practice Aikijutsu.
    Regardless what is said or brought out, an individual if he/she has a mind of their own, will make their own decisions and not base their decisions upon anyone elses.


  6. #6
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    Mr Noble,

    You stated:

    " But I can't help feel that Mr. Pranin is launching a campaign against this group and he is clearly in the Kondo sensei camp. "

    You are right in this observation and I say good for him. If you're suprised you should not be. Stan's position in this matter ultimately has nothing to do with Kondo and everything to do with and the facts and the truth. This needs to be made abundantly clear. Kondo Katsuyuki was formally appointed Soke Dairi by Takeda Tokimune and awarded the only Menkyo Kaiden ever issued by Takeda Tokimune. Do you dispute these facts. Proof of these facts are publicly available. Proof of the coflicting facts offered by the group inquestion are NOT publicly available because they don't exist. If I was Stan I would align myself with the persons who were not lying about the facts. Good choice on his part huh?

    Next you stated:

    "It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them."

    I wonder .... Have you ever actually hung around many high level Japanese Sensei? Are you personally on a level of confidence with them so that they know you and know where your allegiances lie. This above observation makes me laugh out loud. To point out any further notions of realism or the genuine dynamics that exist between Japanese sensei and western students and or other sensei would be futile so I'll just leave it alone.

    And lastly you stated:

    "Regardless what is said or brought out, an individual if he/she has a mind of their own, will make their own decisions and not base their decisions upon anyone elses."


    No. Not regardless. They absolutely SHOULD regard what is brought out and investigate so they can base their decisions on the facts. You would prefer to base your decisions on the facts and not the misrepresentation of the same I hope?

    Respectfully,

    Toby Threadgill

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    Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
    Next you stated:

    "It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them."

    I wonder .... Have you ever actually hung around many high level Japanese Sensei? Are you personally on a level of confidence with them so that they know you and know where your allegiances lie. This above observation makes me laugh out loud. To point out any further notions of realism or the genuine dynamics that exist between Japanese sensei and western students and or other sensei would be futile so I'll just leave it alone.

    Toby Threadgill
    I have "hung around" a few high level Japanese sensei, probably not as many as yourself. My statement is based upon my experience. Yours based upon your own.

    Again, my post is not to say who's right vs. who's wrong only the approach that was taken. You may be right concerning Kondo sensei. The majority rules

    Perhaps I don't feel a need to right every wrong I see. Maybe I'm not at a level where I need to

    Appreciate the discussion.

    Respectfully,

    Greg Noble

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    I have stayed out of this so far, but something in Mr. Noble's reply tweaked me to post.

    I also tend to ignore people who try and increase their own prestige and sucker in students. I for the most part, agree that it's "Buyer beware" in martial arts.

    However, this attitude does create problems for all in martial arts in cases of fraudulant claims that are purposefully created to draw in students.

    This same attitude of "who cares" in the case of an aikido instructor allowed child abuse to occurr and then several others in martial arts to stand up and defend the aikido instructor as innocent because his aikido was so wonderful.

    In any case where some one is making claims as farfetched as the group in discussion or taking advantage of others with fraudulent claims or abuse, then anyone who knows what is taking place should be willing to speak up.

    In this case Stan Pranin asks simple questions which the group should be able to answer if their claims are true. I for one am not going to hold my breath waiting for them to produce the evidence of their claims.

    I know I can't solve problems for everyone or go and right wrongs. But I can at least protect myself, friends, family, and in cases like this, students from those who would take advantage of them.

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    Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

    This same attitude of "who cares" in the case of an aikido instructor allowed child abuse to occurr and then several others in martial arts to stand up and defend the aikido instructor as innocent because his aikido was so wonderful.
    Actually, if we are referring to the case in NC the members of his dojo defended him because they thought he did nothing wrong. In other words they believed the abuse did not occurr.

    Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

    In this case Stan Pranin asks simple questions which the group should be able to answer if their claims are true. I for one am not going to hold my breath waiting for them to produce the evidence of their claims.
    Simple questions are fine and it would be interesting to see some evidence.

    Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

    I know I can't solve problems for everyone or go and right wrongs. But I can at least protect myself, friends, family, and in cases like this, students from those who would take advantage of them.
    Most of my friends and family practice with me

    I think we agree on people validating their claims. And when asked my opinion on a particular school in our area I give my opinion...tactfully

    BTW, in the case in NC, the victim was from my original dojo. Very sad.

    Greg Noble

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    Wasn't refering to the NC case, but another one that occurred on the west coast. The NC case did run through my head though due to some similarities.

    There is a long story behind all the Daito Ryu organizations and I only know parts, but I know enough to understand the motivation people have for asking hard questions and finally posting in public to get answers.

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    Oh man, here’s my two cents...
    I think Stanly has a unique position and a unique responsibility. He is a historian and conduit for historical information in a field that is thin on researchers ‘inthe field.’ He has put in the time and built the reputation and track record to speak in an informative manner on subjects just like this. I know of no one else who has access to S Takeda’s papers, has copies of many Daito Ryu certificates, has talked to first generation students of Sokaku as well as his son, archiving and disseminating good quality information as he goes. If he doesn’t say something who is going to??? and will that person have sufficient resources to back up their statements???
    I think Stan is very brave. He opens himself up to all sorts of problems and it would be easy for him to ‘go with the flow’ and let us fend for ourselves. The site in question obviously relies on the assumption that the reader is not familiar enough with Japanese and Daito tradition to know better. They always have the recourse to “well, your not Japanese and an outsider really can’t have any clue about our secret mysterious ways.” Well that is not true and being sneaky and changing the rules won’t work because there are people who have an understanding and are willing to speak.
    My pet theory based on nothing at all is that the Japanese branch has little to do with the site and it is mostly the creation of the Italian gentleman. That would explain the strange parsing of terms and distortion of processes. They seem to me to be a product of a non-native for what it’s worth.....
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  12. #12
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    Hey guys,

    I'm totally in agreement wqith Walker here. I believe Stan Pranin is in a unique postition to comment on this and I acknowledge that he does indeed take risks by standing up to be heard on this subject. We in the aiki arts all owe him a great debt. Without his investigation into the roots of Aikido, the average aikidoka would still not fully appreciate how technically linked modern aikido is to its root art of Daito ryu.

    I've personally taken some knocks for being so hard on these guys ( in Italy? ). Others have posted more eloquently and posed questions less confrontational than I did. I wonder how truthful the forthcoming responses will be for them. I guess I could have just stood back and not risked entering the controversary altogether or maybe even posted under another name, but thats just not me. I have the masochistic tendency of putting my name right next to my words so there is no mistake about who wrote them.

    I think these guys are way out of line and I stated it publicly for the record. As my senior in SYR, David Maynard Sensei has admonished me, if they produce evidence to confirm their claim I will publicly apologize, again with my name right there for all to see. I'll eat crow by the bagfull if it comes to that.... but..... I'm not losing any sleep at night over the possibility of that.

    Toby Threadgill




  13. #13
    MarkF Guest

    Post Daito ryu

    I have read both of these sites, Daito-ryu.org and daito ryu.com. The one thing which gave me chills, was the claim of the latter of tracing the routes of the Takeda clan back at least one millenia. While I find the claims on both to be a head-scratcher, that was a sore spot. If true, then I must surely agree with those who told me as a child that all jujutsu ryu can be traced back two to three millenia, but that is just me.

    I have absolutely no problem with Pranin's right to post what he wishes on his board, and I too, certainly question the realities of the dot com site, as they certainly make grandiose claims of who has the "real" daito ryu. The interviews with T. Takeda on daito ryu.org are revealing in that they portray the takeda clan, in particular Sokaku with abilities "far and beyone those of mortal men (OK, all superman fans can form a line. The flogging starts when the talking ends)." But with no real connection to the line of succession, surely someone is lying, and possibly perpetrating a fraud, and that is something which anyone has the right to question. If the answers are there, then I will be satisfied (as if anyone cares). If not, well, then "Let Slip the Dogs of War."

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    This whole realm (taking on and exposing the charlatans)is extremely sensitive and frought with deadfalls and maelstroms. This whole scenario is playing itself out in my own small Orlando FL budo comunity. The worst thing a legitimate dojo can do with these imposters is to respond to (i.e. acknowledge)them.

    Toby, I admire and respect you as much as anyone on this website (and still look forward to meeting/ training with you in a few weeks!)yet I cannot endorse your stance that ignoring these folks is cowardice and tacit acknowledgement of the consumately unworthy. Your enemy can answer anything you say except your silence.

    When the immortal Lakota Sioux Crazy Horse was made a "shirt wearer" (a special role of responsibility among his people) he was admonished by an elder that he was "a man of the people now. When the dog comes to lift his leg at your lodge you must take no notice, because you belong above all to the people now." OK, so this is a novelized phrase from Mari Sandoz' great great book "Crazy Horse: The Strange Man of the Oglala." The message is clear.

    If you as a budoka stand for something and your dojo epitomizes the pursuit of excellence why should you notice "the dogs who lift their legs at your lodge?" The instinctive response is to kick them, at least metaphorically. Don't you only lower yourself if you try to kick a dog? (Who will invariably dodge and leave you looking foolish when you miss. . .) Leave them be.Think that you are a man of the people now. You aspire to something higher. Keep you eye and your spirit there. Take your dojo with you. They will go where you lead, after all!

    Cuz it's truer than ever that you don't wanna get into a piss fight with a skunk----no mater who wins, skunk wins.

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    Default Controversy

    I think that those who wish to stretch or alter the truth find a formidable opponent in Stan Pranin. His is a walking encyclopedia and has the professional historian's obsession with detail.

    This does illustrate amother issue. I feel that once you decide to post something up on the internet, you have opened those claims up to the scrutiny and comments of the whole world. I wouldn't ever be so rude as to go into soeones own school and question what he was saying but once he throws it out there on the net it's open season. And there is no guarentee that everybody will behave like gentlemen either.

    I received an e-mail the other day regarding a teacher here in the Northwest that is billing himself as an 8th Dan. The man who sent it has had dealings with this fellow over the years and when he heard this claim he followed it up by contacting Hombu Dojo in Japan. Their last registered rank from this same fellow was shodan. I think that this is equivalent to the Daito Ryu issue in type if not in importance. As far as I am concerned the moment he made this assertion on the net it becomes something for public consumption, otherwise why put it on the net. These days you damn well better be able to back up what you claim. In the old days there might not be anyone around who knew enough to rebutt ridiculous claims of rank or lineage; you could be a big fake in a small pond so to speak. But on the net, you have an entire world of people who can analyse and comment upon anything you say.

    I think it is great. It will make other people think twice about trying to distort the truth if hey see other folks getting in deep when they tried. If you look at the knowedge base and experience level of the folks on this forum, it would be a serious error to try to !!!!!!!! this group. So the moral of this story is that you might still be able to lie locally and get away with it but once you are up on the net it's going to be tough.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

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