Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 69

Thread: General Discussion - legitimacy/succession

  1. #16
    Guest

    Default

    Gil,

    Thanks for your feedback but I dont agree with you here. Silence in the face of fraud is passively allowing the fraud to occur.

    You stated:

    "If you as a budoka stand for something and your dojo epitomizes the pursuit of excellence why should you notice "the dogs who lift their legs at your lodge?" The instinctive response is to kick them, at least metaphorically. Don't you only lower yourself if you try to kick a dog?

    The answer here is obviously yes but the parallel story about the dog is not in my opinion relevent. You see the dog is not malevolent. The dog is just naturally doing what a dog must do. I guess the argument could be made that these gentlemen in Abarishi and Italy are unable to control themselves and therefore equated with a dog peeing on a lodge. Actually I find that parallel funny....but I'm sure they don't.

    Toby Threadgill

  2. #17
    Kevin Myers Guest

    Default

    Have you guys seen the posts/responses on the Aikido Journal board by the Seishinkai student?

  3. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    737
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Hi Kevin, welcome aboard.

    Yep, but when you read the posts on the Aikido JOurnal forum, it states little that is not already known.

    What is interesting is how they have changes things to fit their point of view. Major points such as how a menkyo kaiden is viewed by them is one example.

    What is comes down to is they are claiming to be the according to their website, the honbu for Daito Ryu but at the same time claiming not to be. How the hell does that work?

    In short, they are making claims with no hard evidence to support their claims. George L. has a good point here, post it and you will have people rip it apart to make you back up big claims.

    I personally think they are full of smelly stuff, but I could be wrong. If I am then I will apologize when they produce the evidence,but I seriously don't think that will take place.

  4. #19
    Kevin Myers Guest

    Default

    Hi Neil!

    I agree, I think these guys are full of **it! It's interesting to see how they either dodge the question/change the subject or make up their own version of history without any documentation.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default what we don't know may bite us in the bum

    Hey guys,

    I'll tell you one thing for sure (from the front line), there is alot about this issue that has not been publicly documented - or at least, is not "commonly" known yet:

    1) Kondo Sensei does appear to have reversed the position that he reluctantly took during his interview in 1992. The possibility of this change of mind to me does not necessarily mean that he is not credible, but more likely that evidence came up after that statement that caused him to change his position. Only one way to find out.

    2) Mrs. Yokoyama and perhaps others may not have been
    totally straightforward regarding the existance or a written will by Tokimune Sensei. If so, this could be because the conditions in which Tokimune Sensei had signed such a will may have been adverse (mentally), and was later considered irrelevant as a result. If that is in fact the case, it would be nice for them to say so, but hopefully we'll find out.

    3) It does not seem as though anyone is thrilled about the idea of the older daughter (Mrs. Oshima/Takeda) or in particular her husband assuming the Sokeship. Perhaps Tokimune S. chose the younger daughter because he trusted her more (if that was the case to begin with) and included the older daughter to hopefully reduce tension that would develop between them otherwise.

    Personally, I feel that Tokimune Sensei's *intention* is the only consideration. If it can be justified within reasonable doubt that he had intended (while in mentally competant condition) his Daughter(s) to succeed him, then that is the right thing to do. But his brother had tried to push his way through to the Sokeship while he was still alive, and was expelled for his action.

    I have a feeling that if we knew the personallities involved in this issue, the truth would become clear.

    What a mess.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Bellevue,WA USA
    Posts
    243
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Distortions

    I will admit that on one level I feel better. It's nice to know that it isn't just a bunch of greedy Americans that are apt to distort these issues. Too bad that anyone feels the need.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  7. #22
    Guest

    Default

    (Double post)


    [Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-28-2000 at 05:56 PM]

  8. #23
    Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
    Nathan,

    I agree with your above post but I would like to point out something that seems to be consistently overlooked. The following is copied directly from the English language homepage at daito-ryu.com. These are only the second and third sentences respectfully and one would assume that they are placed so prominently due to their important nature.

    "In his last will (a public act that is available to the public) he appointed his daughter as our next Soke."

    "She is the only legitimate person that may claim this position."


    The first sentence clearly states that the (mysterious) will is "available to the public". Sooooo I ask, why is this will aparently not available to us. Are we not the public? And next, that he (Tokimune) in this will appointed his daughter (Mrs Yokoyama) as Soke. By their own admission ... Mrs Yokoyama.

    The third sentence then states that she (the same Mrs Yokoyama) is the ONLY legitiment person that may claim this position. "ONLY LEGITIMENT PERSON!!!" I remind you that these are the Seishinkai's own words copied directly from their own website.

    Since they are so fond of resorting to semantics and obfuscation in their debate let them choke on those for a while. As you have surely noticed they later refute thir own detail on their own website by now claimimng Mrs Oshima is the legitament Soke.

    Toby Threadgill

  9. #24
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default

    Toby-san,

    I took the liberty of incorporating your (valid) points to my last post to them. I think you'll like it. The whole post picks out contradictions in Mr. Kobayashi's statements and the actions they are taking/writing.

    regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #25
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Davenport, FL, USA
    Posts
    298
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Toby,

    As I said at the beginning of my post this is a real sensitive area. And we're playing it out here in Orlando. I have nothing but the highest respect for your position of standing up for something. I could be wrong as hell in this and I have changed my views before (see dojo testing topic).

    A colleague of mine who came up through the kyu ranks with me failed his nidan test and went off and opened his own dojo. He's a wealthy physician so he could buy a beautiful kamiza, mat, etc. Dojo expenses would never be a factor. At first my sensei viewed this whole thing similar to my post to you. Then this person became a "Godan" in Aikido AND Jujitsu. We smiled and shook our heads when this surfaced.

    Now he has come out with a swank professional video (selling for $60!!!) in which all his voodoo Aikido is exhibited with ukes that are of course more stunt men than budoka. He's depicted in seiza cleaning a katana (when he's never had any legit instruction in sword) once even turning the blade into his belly as he seriously wipes with his now shaven head peering on.

    At the conclusion of his video he profusely thanks the North Vietnamese master who is the rubber stamper of his paper mill certificates and never once mentions my sensei, under whom he learned the little real Aikido he has and from whom he received the only valid budo certificate he will ever own!

    Now my sensei can no longer avoid the dog lifting his leg. He is furious, feels betrayed and belittled, and worst of all he is deeply hurt. He has come full circle in his response to this issue. The only thing of real value in his life, he has told us, is his reputation. I feel that way myself. As an experienced scenic artist I resent the entry-level interlopers who threaten my career, sometimes with photos of my work in their portfolios!!!!

    My post revolved around my reluctance to see men of high ideals like my sensei and you getting it on them when they do it in the dirt. The point being ultimately the necessity of responding to these imposters. You see it as essential and even though I disagree I find it impossible to argue. The individual under discussion here has never referred to my sensei or our dojo. Yet he is now perceived as in need of response and "being squared away." You see the charlatans in your orbit the same way.

    I hope you will accept this in the spirit of great respect in which it is offered. I apologize for running on so long.
    As Dave Mason sang 30 years ago (when I had dark hair and a waistline): There ain't no good guy/ There ain't no bad guy/ There's only you and me and we just disagree.

    Looking to meet you up the Path,

    Gil

  11. #26
    Guest

    Default

    Gil,

    The martial arts world is an amazing microcosm isn't it. It's easy for me to ignore some of the charlatans evident around us. On some level my sensei Yukio Takamura considered them useful. Sort of like filter system that kept the trash in a trash can. What raised my ire so much about the Seishinkai is that it's fraud is supported by a legitament high ranking past student of Tokimune. That is what I find shameful and that is what has crossed the line in my mind and made me speak up so publicly. I don't believe I am the martial arts police but that we all are.

    In fact why don't we elect Nathan as Chief. He's so eloquent. I wouldn't make it past corporal

    Toby Threadgill

    BTW, Nathan I did like your post.... alot!


  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default

    Ha ha ha!!!

    Would that make me something like "Chief Engineer Scott"?

    Mabye I missed my calling sitting her making cartoons, huh?



    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  13. #28
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default

    Popie,

    We're all waiting for you to kindly supply us with your organizational background. I don't think your going to get much discussion out of anyone about anything on this list unless you start coming clean.

    And lay off attacking everyone. Toby hasn't said squat to you.



    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  14. #29
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Outside of Phila.
    Posts
    1,494
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Hi Nathan,

    Say, didn't you see that sign on the way in?

    "Please don't feed the trolls..."



    Ron Tisdale

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default USE YOUR FULL NAME

    Mr. Popie,

    Please use your FULL name!
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Australian Discussion Forum owner being sued
    By Dean Whittle in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 24th September 2007, 12:13
  2. Kiai discussion on jodo forum
    By A. Bakken in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2nd December 2003, 12:48
  3. Kiai discussion on jodo forum
    By A. Bakken in forum Gendai Budo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 26th November 2003, 19:10
  4. General application of Go Ju Ittai
    By Plechazunga in forum Shorinji Kempo
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 27th September 2003, 11:54
  5. On Aikido Demonstrations in general
    By Dennis Hooker in forum Aikido
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 13th February 2003, 23:41

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •