Likes Likes:  0
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 69

Thread: General Discussion - legitimacy/succession

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Outside of Phila.
    Posts
    1,494
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Ok, I'm guilty. My curriosity has just gotten the better of me.
    ________________________________________________________
    May be Mr. Tisdale we should go over to your BB and talk about this.
    _________________________________________________________
    And what BB would that be? *I* don't have one. I do post on RMA, www.aikidojournal.com, and here. My posts (and any subsequent discussions) are a public record, open to all, and all are welcome. Yet *I* host no "BB"s myself, so am mystified by your statement. Could you be more specific?

    ______________________________________________________
    That is you were not highly liked here at one time.
    ________________________________________________________
    I don't know that I am "highly liked" now (and don't really care). And didn't care "at one time" whether I was liked or not. As far as the vast majority of posters here, I am a pion. I am lowly ranked, fair to middlin on my best day on the mat, and content to struggle on day by day trying to improve. As such, I come here to learn. The few things I think I have a handle on I share. I *try* to do so intelligently, however. And I try to do some research to avoid asking stupid questions, or annoying people.
    _________________________________________________________
    If I remember right you didn't get along with the people you seem to now. That is you butted heads and had opinions.
    _________________________________________________________

    Well, lets see. Could you please name some of the people I've "butted heads" with? I do remember one gentleman in the CQC area: I made some presumptions, and was called on them. The gentleman and I resolved our differences amicably. I recall some discussions with Arthur as well; he and I go back aways on RMA. Again, I believe the discussions were amicable. Hey, I've always had opinions, and been willing to share them. No one here views that as a crime, not even when you do it.

    __________________________________________________________
    Alluding to not everyone is a suck -up. Metaphorically speaking. And since then have taken advantage of the crash and changes on this BB. I am alluding to you are jumping on a bandwagon, attack me without provication because it has become the "in thing" to get kudos from other posters.
    __________________________________________________________

    I don't think the other posters have given me any kudos (nor would I want any). I made my comments about and to you because they were my opinions. You are rude, obnoxious, uninformed, and your mindless dribble brings down the quality of this board. Suck up? Oh well, if thats the worst insult you can bring to the show, have at it.

    And as for taking advantage of the crash; I was having some really great discussions before the crash...I hope the old material becomes available soon...I'd like to continue them.

    __________________________________________________________
    Now, Mr. Tisdale all metaphorically speaking. Let's go to your board and talk hypocrisy shall we sir? People in glass houses (house of Winsor if you like) shouldn't throw stones because they see the other kids doing it. Therefore your unsolicated personal flame is uncalled for. Otherwise, I suggest you stop flaming me, or is there another reason for your numberous unsolicited flames sir?
    ___________________________________________________________

    Anyone who doesn't want to get flamed should take good advice when its given (and it was given, to you, by several people). Perhaps I've "piled on" a bit. It certainly has not been hypocritical; I stand by everything I've said. Oh, and the word is numerous, which my "flames" have not been. But you are right about one thing; as annoying and useless as your drivel has been, it has not been directed at me, so back in the closet I go.
    Ron Tisdale

    _______________________________________________________
    Mommy didn't raise me stupid, just obnoxiously forthcomming and opinionated. "I am not worthy! I am not worthy!"
    ________________________________________________________

    You really shouldn't feed people opportunities like this one....they are *very* hard to pass up!
    RT

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Bellevue,WA USA
    Posts
    243
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Men of Diubious Character

    The whole issue of what do we choose to pay attention to and make a stand is always interesting. People making claims to dubious martial parentage and those with miraculously appearing ranks (you have probably seen my posts mentioning our Aikido Eighth Dan here in the Northwest)seem to generate a lot of attention and ire.

    In some ways it is interesting that false claims to credentials seems to upset people more than the various ethical issues that confront people in leadership positions in the arts. People turn a blind eye to Senseis who are sexually active with their female students, the alcohol issue is often talked about privately but seldom aired publicly, abusive violence on the part of various teachers goes unremarked in public forum. These are all important issues, possibly of more import than someone faking his rank (which usually just results in some clown with a big number and average skill making him look silly). I think people hold off because they don't want to get involved in issues that could easily look like character assasination. Yet when you have an internet discussion of certain teachers bogus claims to lineage and / or rank, you are already calling his character into doubt. Yet people charge right in on one hand and hesitate on the other. What does that say?

    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  3. #33
    Guest

    Default

    Nathan and all of you guys,


    LOLOLOL.

    Can you believe what Nathan Scott did here. That BOOGER! This is a quote from the daito-ryu .com site under such scrutiny. He posted:

    " However, dispite my rising suspician, I have appreciated your participation and have tried to be as polite as I can be - which it seems you would agree is somewhat more than some of my colleagues.
    If you find this difference in approach to be offensive, I'd be happy to approach Mr. Threadgill to assume my end of the disussion! :-) "

    Thanks alot Nathan! To be used as such a threat! I... I ...I feel so taken advantage of.... like a... uh sledghammer. So nice I could have been of such wonderful service to you. Anytime ...No ... No... No Anytime.



    Toby

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Talking YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK!!!

    Hi Toby-san,

    Oh, you noticed that part?!?

    HA ha ha ha!!! I was laughing me arse off when I wrote that.

    You said what we all wanted to say, but I was determined to get some answers out of them if possible. I am most "fascinated" by their response to the proof I posted on their board. Hmmmm...

    That reminds me. It's time to back my favorite dojo secretary into a corner.

    Thanks for adding to my already large amusement! Hee hee hee...

    I slay myself.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
    phil Guest

    Default

    I am new to this website and was told about it by one of my students. The question of rooting out false practitioners and especially "grand masters" is important. Two examples from my own experience might highlight the problem. In the small East Texas town where I teach, a local person decided to say that he was a 5th dan in Daito ryu. This was the result of two different workouts with a person who was supposed to be a Daito ryu master. After 2 workouts, gee a 5th dan. This cheapens the arts of all of us who sincerely practice a martial way. Worse, people go and get hurt by this person and instead of pursuing a legitimate martial art, they see martial arts as a bad experience. The second example is from our U.S. Yoseikan Budo. A book was written and the author claimed to be a grandmaster of his own style and a third dan in our style. Those who knew him know that he never rose beyond brown belt in Yoseikan. The publisher was put on notice of the problem and has been cooperative, but the damage is done. Now, everytime this "grandmaster" does a seminar, our organization gets dinged! Our Yoseikan style is one of the very oldest of the aiki styles and our creator has close ties to daito ryu, including being called back by daito ryu on several occaisions to correct techniques for them. Our international organization, based now in France has strict requirements for being a licensed instructor and Europeans have a hard time understanding the problems we have in this country with fly-by-night instructors because the martial arts are regulated by the state. I like being free in the US but maybe some regulation would really help.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default Oldest styles of aiki?

    Hello Phil-san,

    Welcome to the forum!

    Could we ask you to either post with your full, real name or perhaps include it in your signature file?

    I concur with your post. Daito ryu is the hot style to be studying these days, so there are alot of false claims being made. That is the beauty of the internet - easy to weed someone out!

    I'm curious though about your comment that Yoseikan Budo is one of the oldest of the aiki styles. If this is the same group I am familiar with, it was founded by Mochizuki Sensei, who was an extraordinary Budoka in Aikido, Judo and several other arts. But his Yoseikan Budo is recently founded, and is in fact, one of the *newest* arts to incorporate aiki.

    Also, if we are talking about Mochizuki Sensei, it seems unlikely that any of the Daito ryu branches (of which there are five major recognized branches - which one are you talking about?) would have called him in for technical advice. All the branches I'm thinking of are or were headed at that time by pretty senior exponents in the art.

    Please elaborate on your statement.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #37
    phil Guest

    Default

    Hi Nathan,

    I can understand the confusion. Minoru Mochizuki was a student of O Sensei in 1930. He established the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka in 1931. Most people are more familiar with his son Hiroo Mochizuki who, until 1992, was building the Yoseikan World Federation and Yoseikan Budo in France and Europe. Minoru and Hiroo are both practitioners of multiple disciplines but it was the father, Minoru who was sent by Kano. In 1992 (the change was not made public by Minoru until several years later)Minoru gave control of the entire organization and style to his son. Our U.S. association affiliated with the Yoseikan World Federation in 1996. The video tape I have was confirmed by Mr. Steel (Daito Ryu in Tokyo)and is a tape of a Goodwill Demonstration involving dojo from across Japan. I honestly do not know who Minoru consulted with specifically because he had contact with so many of these different groups. As a side note, Minoru Mochizuki now lives with his son in France and still attends workouts to watch his son and grandson, still goes for walks with the family and, according to the grandson, really hates his wheelchair any time he has to use it. The effect of a great budo heart lies in the life of this man, he is 93 years old and still
    discussing technique with his son on a daily basis. I understand he even took a small tumble on one of his walks, used his ukemi, got up and kept walking. I want to be able to do that at 65! As soon as I figure out how to get my full name on the line I will submit it, but Phil Farmer is correct.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Colo Spgs, CO USA
    Posts
    377
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Phil,

    Welcome to e-budo. Yoseikan Budo, founded by Minoru Mochizuki sensei was one of the oldest "aikido" organizations, however it is a modern budo and most definitely is not one of the very oldest aiki styles. As you stated Mochizuki sensei was a student of Ueshiba sensei (the founder of aikido) in the 30's. I believe that the first rank Mochizuki sensei received from Ueshiba may have been in Daito-ryu. Since Ueshiba was still teaching Daito-ryu at that time, it makes sense that Mochizuki may have some Daito-ryu influence.

    However it is extremely unlikely, even unbelievable that any Daito-ryu organizations would ever ask Mochizuki sensei to critique, much less correct their techniques.

    The video tape you are referring to is the 1992 Public Daito-ryu Demonstration commemorating the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takeda sensei's passing at the Nihon Budokan. The demonstration featured some of the top Daito-ryu instructors, and some guests were invited including Onoha Itto-ryu kenjutsu master Takemi Sasamori. Several representatives of modern arts derived from Daito-ryu were also invited, and these included the Aikikai Honbu dojo and Yoseikan Budo. Some of my seniors were present at the demonstration and recalled with humor that Mochizuki sensei's lecture seemed to never end.

    As an interesting side note - almost all the techniques (95%) performed on the whole tape were jujutsu techniques, not aikijujutsu techniques. At that time in 1992, aiki techniques were still rarely demonstrated publically.

    Brently Keen

  9. #39
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Perhaps this is a misunderstanding on both parties versions. While I agree Brently, that it is unlikely that someone in Daito ryu would ask Mochizuki questions about technique regarding "Daito Ryu", perhaps he gave out some advice on sword.
    At the particular demonstration you are talking about a certain sensei demonstrated sword and was chastised by Mochizuki sensei who said something along the lines of "Daito ryu people not knowing much about sword." He then had his men demonstrate sword.
    I got this version from two Daito ryu people there and had it confirmed years later by the sensei who was chastised.
    I am confidant that all men present respected Mochizuki's age and his commitment to the arts. Which is why they would put up with the old mans lecturing :-). Perhaps Mochizuki's Judo and his Katori Shinto ryu should be looked at as his main arts. If you look into his involvement with Daito ryu, it is minimul. As to his studies with with Ueshiba sensei, my understanding was they were short and then Mochizuki moved away. While (some)of the techniques look similar they are jujutsu and do not appear to demonstrate Daito ryu Aiki.
    This may clarify the issue of why Phil thinks Mochizuki was asked about technique, and why Brently thinks (as do I) no one in Daito ryu would do so.

    Regards
    Dan

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 07-22-2000 at 07:12 AM]

  10. #40
    Kevin Myers Guest

    Thumbs up

    The Aikido Journal web site is starting to post Kondo Sensei's answers to the questions presented to him by Stan Pranin in regards to who should lead Daito-Ryu and the Daito-Ryu.com individuals. Looks like it will be good stuff!!!

  11. #41
    MPraskey Guest

    Default

    After many years of waiting I've finally
    made it to Japan. I'm trying to find a school
    of Aiki-jutsu in Kyoto, specificlaly one that teaches
    all the of the classical weapons of the style at the
    higher levels. I belive that particular branch awnsers
    to the hombu in in Abashiri and I recall that they
    had a branch in Kyoto (Kyoto kai) but I have no information
    beyond that. Any information anyone could give me would
    be vastly appreciated.

  12. #42
    MarkF Guest

    Default Daito ryu Vs Daito ryu

    Welcome to E-budo, Mr. Praskey and on having the pleasure of living in Japan.

    Before deciding on a school of daito ryu aikijujutsu, you may want to read Mr. Stanley Pranin's open letter to the webmaster of http://www.daitoryu.com and the site of Kondo sensei's http://daito-ryu.org . It is an ongoing and fascinating discussion with Kondo-S. now responding to questions put to him, and questions put to those at Abashiri.

    I do not do aiki Jujutsu, but it may, either help you to make your decision or confuse it more, I am not sure. The open letter from Mr. Pranin is at http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000010.html

    Good luck!

    Mark

  13. #43
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default

    Here are some quotes taken from the Seishin Abashiri Dojo web page. These are new additions:

    Classic schools (ko-ryu in Japanese) are always directed by a Soke. Any School that is not directed by a Soke can no longer be considered a Ko-ryu by that sole fact. Thus anyone claiming to direct or to represent a classical school, without being its soke is exposing his ignorance of Japanese culture and traditions to the public, and should thus be regarded suspiciously.
    I've been looking into the whole ryu-ha succession and Iemoto system trends since bashing the issue around with SAD a few months ago. The above statement is simply wrong. It may or may not apply to Daito ryu specifically, but is wrong to impose on the history of Koryu in Japan.

    In Japan, as in Europe, a title may only be passed along a blood lineage. The title of Soke is no exception. Only the son of a previous Soke may thus claim such a position legitimately.
    Nope.

    In some rare exceptions the Soke would adopt a senior student and thus appoint him as next Soke.
    This is closer...

    The role of the Soke was (and still is) one of absolute control and rule over the school, and the person in this position should be in [possesion] of the School's transmission scrolls (densho in Japanese).
    Agreed.

    One would only smile at such attempts (that only expose the ignorance and the rather large ego of who makes them) if it were not that such poor attempts mislead the general public who is less than fully aware of our School's legitimate succession lineage.
    The entire rant on their web page is obviously directed at Kondo Sensei. That's fine, except you can't say that their squabble applies to the way all ryu-ha in Japan are run. Again, that is wrong.

    1. Japan's culture and traditions do not allow for any misinterpretation:

    a classic school may only be represented by a family member. The Soke.
    Wrong. Perhaps Daito ryu, but not all "classic schools".

    2. Takeda Tokimune (the last Soke) clearly stated in his last will that his daughter was to succeed him as Head Master.
    That remains to be seen. Kondo S. stated in the most recent translation of his statement that no such will exists. They have still not presented one shred of evidence to support their position. They have also not responded to any of the posts on their BBS for quite a while.

    I still intend to wait until the complete statement by Kondo S. is translated before re-entering discussions with the SAD group, but I have to say they are not looking very convincing the more they talk.

    Any comments on the above?



    [Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-10-2000 at 07:10 PM]
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Atlanta - USA
    Posts
    712
    Likes (received)
    6

    Unhappy Whatever...

    These half truths, shadings, misrepresentations, distortions, lies, etc... may have gone over ten years ago, but not today. The SAD group is living in the past as far as pulling the wool over gaijin eyes. Plus I see the days where tongues are held (even in Japan) are over.

    As far as I know, for example, Shindo Muso Ryu has no hereditary soke position. Correct me if Iím wrong.

    Add to that their extreme protestations and it just gets pathetic.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  15. #45
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Likes (received)
    44

    Default

    Agreed.

    I hesitate to comment on SMR, as I only have a passing knowledge of their politics. Mrs. Skoss or other members would surely have more reliable comments.

    Mr. Kobayashi was pretty condescending to another poster who challenged their position, tearing up his Japanese etc. While the poster was a little off on a few points, they of course chose to focus soley on the cultural/language mistakes and use that to discredit his ligitimate concerns.

    So far he has not tried that with me, but I am not concerned about that. I have a growing stack of good resources in Japanese language; apparently more than they do considering the ignorance of their new rant.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Australian Discussion Forum owner being sued
    By Dean Whittle in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 24th September 2007, 12:13
  2. Kiai discussion on jodo forum
    By A. Bakken in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2nd December 2003, 12:48
  3. Kiai discussion on jodo forum
    By A. Bakken in forum Gendai Budo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 26th November 2003, 19:10
  4. General application of Go Ju Ittai
    By Plechazunga in forum Shorinji Kempo
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 27th September 2003, 11:54
  5. On Aikido Demonstrations in general
    By Dennis Hooker in forum Aikido
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 13th February 2003, 23:41

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •