General Discussion - legitimacy/succession

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi guys,

I think this whole abashiri nonsense is pretty much moot. Now, having met Kondo S., spent time hearing his point of view, and seeing the quality of his technique, I just don't see the point in debating with people who obviously are twisting facts to their own best interests. Perhaps the details of "sokeship" would hold more interest for me if Kondo S. was trying to proclaim himself soke, but since he's not, those remarks are really off topic.

I'd have to say that anyone who was making character attacks on the man that I met this weekend, is way off base. Not having seen their technique, I guess I can't speak to that comparison, but I do have a pretty strong inclination to go with what I saw/experienced. People looking to make a choice should see/train with Kondo S. before being taken in by the claims of others (and that goes for more than just the group in abashiri).

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Ron-san,

While you have a good point, there are many who will be duped into believing that if the SAD group can claim "honbu" status for all of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, and it is allowed to remain uncontested, then it must be true.

That is why it either needs to be handled legally in private (which it may or may not be right now), or hashed out pubicly for all to see and judge for themselves based on facts and evidence presented.

I agree about the Sokeship issue. Perhaps they are referring to Aikibudo in particular. Or, maybe they think the general public does not know this small point!

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Nathan-san!

"Perhaps they are referring to Aikibudo in particular. Or, maybe they think the general public does not know this small point!"

Well, if you are refering to the differentiation between Daito ryu Aikibudo and Daito ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu; no the general public is not very much aware in my opinion. I do believe that Kondo S's new book will help to make the distinction a little clearer, but I think more will have to be said about this.

Ron (still in a *lot* of pain from the weekend) Tisdale

[Carlos Estrella]

I, like many folks here, have come to question the claims of the Abashiri Daito Ryu folks, but one question has been largely ignored (unless I've missed something - if so, please point me in the right direction)... since many of the senior folks in the Abashiri group come from the Daitokan originally, how good are they? Has anyone seen their technique "up close?"

Thank God (or your own divine power if you have one) for people like Kondo Sensei, Kiyama Sensei here in California, the folks in the Takumakai, Kodokai and all the other associations teaching true Daito Ryu as passed on to their founders by Takeda Sokaku or his senior students... my main concern here though, is whether we're spinning our own wheels debating the legitimacy of one group over another.

From a legal standpoint, I'm sure Kondo Sensei has the best claim. From a technical standpoint, I'm also sure he has a legitimate claim to the complete Daito Ryu curriculum as passed down by Takeda Tokimune Sensei. I'm not so sure about all the Abashiri bashing I've seen here and elsewhere, regardless of their claims. Granted, I'm not fond of all of the history rewrites coming out of Abashiri - then again... most of us weren't there when those folks broke away from Takeda-san's school, nor do we know why they did.

Forgive me for such a long post... comments?

Carlos

[MarkF]

I'm not sure it matters how good they are on these threads, but aiki-bashing is a heck of a lot of fun, and you just may learn something, too, in this type of process. But there usually are little bits of information which just nip at you, meaning you are on the right side.

It is one thing to believe any art has an 1100 years of existence (as in the Dai Nippon Butokukai), but it is entirely different to make the claim, and then attempt to back it up.

Surely after that length of time, there wouldn't be an argument thus, we get to bash someone.

C'mon! Pick a side and "choose off."

Mark

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carlos:

I think I know what you are saying, but I have not been able to find anything in any of the material I have read on this Net or AIKIDO JOURNAL.COM to suggest this struggle is anything other than political. As an outsider I honestly wish that occasionally this would become a technical argument, hoping that MA could somehow benefit. So far, no such luck. At the risk of over-simplifying a very complex dynamic it seems like a simple case of people not "working and playing well together". Since I am on the outside of all of this I DO wonder if the root of the issues that were bandied about on another string regarding Roppokai and the NC people might not have simply been similar political problems. And if THAT is accurate, does that reduce traditional MA to nothing more than an elaborate pyramid scheme with room for only one leader at the top and everyone else in support. I know in the Korean arts people will start a "new pyramid" (organization, kwan,school) at the drop of a hat.

Best Wishes and Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Ron Tisdale]

The only technical comment I have seen is at the following link:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000010.html

on the aikido journal website. The comment was made by Stanly Pranin, who (I think) is in a better position than many to make such a comment. I do think the technical issue should be at least addressed. It is part of the total picture.

Ron Tisdale

[glad2bhere]

Dear Ron:

I completely missed that exchange. Thanks for bringing it forward.

"...As an afterthought, I had a chance to view the videotapes published by BAB Japan performed by senior members of the Abashiri Seishinkai group with which you folks will be familiar. Those demonstrating are the same individuals mentioned on numerous occasions in this forum. I was really disappointed with the physicality of the execution of techniques, the lack of precision and application of "aiki." I think a comparison of these tapes with those of Kondo Sensei would be enlightening.

Stanley Pranin ..."

This is what I have experienced in Hapkido. With the division of the art along political lines, the art itself is becoming increasingly physical such that the more subtle biomechanics are not just being disregarded, but actually lost. There is much to indicate that aspect of the Korean Yu Sool were every bit as sophisticated as the Japanese arts regarding unbalancing, displacement, etc., but that this material has steadily eroded. As I mentioned in an e-mail some months ago, I had originally taken a dim view of the "excessively protective" nature of the Ryu-ha system in Japan. However, whatever political incorrectness the system might have seems to be more than offset by the exceptional way it has archived the arts for posterity, yes?

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Carlos Estrella]

Thanks to all who have replied so far...

As far as "picking sides," my personal loyalties in regards to Daito Ryu, are to the ones who introduced me to it, namely Dave Lamond, a student of Roy Goldberg of the Daito Ryu Kodokai, and Kiyama Sensei, Kyoju Dairi of the Daito Ryu Kodokai, whose technique was awesome to both see and feel.

I have great respect for Kondo Sensei, as he is disseminating the art as he was taught to by the reviver's son Takeda Tokimune. I also have great respect and admiration for folks in the Aiki community who put politics aside and attend seminars like the one in Maryland, so they can experience real Daito Ryu. I disagree, respectfully of course, with the folks in Abashiri, who seem hell-bent on pushing their version of Daito Ryu history, and from what I can see, hell-bent on showing techniques that (according to posts here) seem less-than-satisfactory.

I've been unavoidably prevented from shugyo in Daito Ryu for some time, but when scheduling permits (and I can figure out how to balance classes at Guy Power's Kenshinkan Dojo, trips to San Luis Obispo to practice at the Kodokai's dojo there, and work and family...), I hope that all the bickering doesn't do to Daito Ryu what it has done to other arts represented here (no offense to practitioners of Ninjutsu, but mention "Ninja" outside of this forum and see what reaction you get).

Again, thanks to the folks who commented. I hope to run into some of you folks at a seminar sometime.

Yours truly,

Carlos

[Nathan Scott]

Hello all,

When political/historical debate occurs, there is always a percentage of the public that ask "does it really matter"? and "can't we just train".

The fact is that it does matter to many, and in particular to instructors of the systems and those that are charged with continuing the integrity and transmission line of the given art. It may be unpleasant to observe when hashed about publicly, but sometimes that is necessary (as in this case) and for those not interested or bothered by it there is nothing stopping them from not following the debate.

If it bothers you, then don't put energy into following the issues. Concentrate on training and hope that everything works out somehow for the best. I'm not getting down on anyone specifically, just offering some common sense regarding this subject in general because you can be guarenteed to field it in any given political/historical debate.

my main concern here though, is whether we're spinning our own wheels debating the legitimacy of one group over another.

That could be, but thats a risk the people involved in the debate are taking with their own time and energy.

I believe it is the responsibility of those that have in Budo longer than some others to help guide new comers to qualified, properly credentialed instruction. Why? Because new comers have not followed the arts and participated in such discussions enough in most cases to make educated decisions as to what and who to train under.

Since the MA's are currently unregulated by an outside body (thank god), the responsibility falls within the existing Budo community to assist in this regard. New students have a right to receive (if accepted as a student) instruction in the art they believe they have joined and under an instructor who is properly and truthfully credentialed. If an instructor cannot provide verification/resource for verification of such (within reason), then they should not be teaching the public.

This can be as simple as offering someone advice on *how* to properly evaluate a dojo and instructor. This is news to alot of people.

I am not interested in starting a "witch hunt" personally (there is already people doing that!), but I am interested in Daito ryu and those that claim to represent the Takeda family of which the art has been passed through. This is a major claim, and I kind of fell into the debate. But as long as I'm here I intend to follow through, personally.

I know of one person who was an instructor of another style that withdrew from the art(s) he was studying to conform to the requirements for being accepted as an uchi-deshi at the Seishin Abashiri Dojo. This is not necessarily a bad thing if he is happy, and that is what he was looking for. But I wonder if he would have done so if it turned out that the SAD group's credentials/claims were not as they had published? Maybe, maybe not. But there are alot of people who will be attracted - perhaps falsely - to the SAD group if it turns out that their claims are unsubstantiated or in conflict with facts.

In addition, allowing other schools to claim "honbu" status of a style does in fact aid in splintering the style and causing greater confusion and problems. It is in fact best for the tradition to nip these types of claims in the butt before they are allowed to gain influence and perceived credibility.

BTW, I'm still trying really hard to keep an open mind to the possibility that SAD will come forth with documentation to back up any of the claims they have made. We'll see.

I'm not so sure about all the Abashiri bashing I've seen here and elsewhere, regardless of their claims. Granted, I'm not fond of all of the history rewrites coming out of Abashiri - then again... most of us weren't there when those folks broke away from Takeda-san's school, nor do we know why they did.

I haven't seen *any* Abashiri bashing so far, aside from some initial comments made on their BBS several months ago. Everything else has been restrained and fairly objective. If I've missed bashing sessions, please let me know. The fact is, they are ex-students of Takeda T., and I think should be respected as such to some degree. They simply should justify their public claims that are in conflict with another person's established claim or remove them. I have no interest in seeing them dragged through the mud personally. Not everyone is going to "get it" from a technical standpoint.

Also, we were'nt there for the occurances that led to the situation we are discussing now. But, it did not happen that long ago and there is really no reason why this subject can't be settled. Mr. Pranin has been personally present and involved in several significant events in relation to this. We are not talking about hundreds of years ago. However, the longer we wait the harder it gets to settle these issues.

And if THAT is accurate, does that reduce traditional MA to nothing more than an elaborate pyramid scheme with room for only one leader at the top and everyone else in support.

The "pyramid scheme" you mention may be a variant used in some commercial MA organizations, but this is a bit different than power structures used in Japan. In Japan, the heirarchy/organizational structure is traditionally pyramid shaped. There is not necessarily a scam to be associcated with this, it just differs from the more democratic structure we are accustomed to in the west.

I would discourage a confusing pyramid style scams to the heirarchy in many Japanese traditions, IMHO. It is simply another way of doing things (for better or worse).

Hope this helps a little!

Happy Thanksgiving,

[gnoble]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nathan Scott

I believe it is the responsibility of those that have in Budo longer than some others to help guide new comers to qualified, properly credentialed instruction. Why? Because new comers have not followed the arts and participated in such discussions enough in most cases to make educated decisions as to what and who to train under.

Nathan,

I agree with giving new comers advice on choosing an instructor but how do we/you define a "qualified, properly credentialed instructor/instruction"?

For example, aikido; do we define this qualified instructor as having a certificate from one of the large organizations out there? Or only the Aikikai Hombu dojo. What about independent instructors?

Food for thought. Didn't mean to get away from the main topic

[Nathan Scott]

I don't think there's a correct, simple answer for this. My answer is it is a judgement call on the part of the person giving the advice. The call could be made on verified certification, whether the instructor appears to have the ability and knowledge of someone of his credentials could be an indicator, and what kind of reputation the person has.

If it is a style you are familiar with, you may be able to offer your "experienced" opinion as to the skill and teaching manner of the person, if you view a class.

An opinion is still an opinion, and the interested party can do with it what they like.

I wasn't trying to sound exclusive or "white man's burden" in my last post, just pointing out that MA has no governing/regulating body outside of ourselves to discourage frauds and whackos from opening up shop and providing a liability to unsuspecting students.

Regards,

[Doug Taylor]

This is my first post on this web board. Please excuse me in advance, if my post is improperly formatted in any way. Over the past few months, I have been a frequent and quiet observor to many of the various discussions and topics that have been expressed here on this site. Many of the posts I have found to be very informational and helpful, as they pertain to various aspects in relation to a particular Japanese Martital Art. The internet is truly a wonderful tool!!!

I must openly state that I am a junior student of the "Seishinkai Group" or SAD as it has been listed by many on this site. I understand to some, that this automatically makes me suspicious, suspect, or a fake. So I feel compelled as a creditability issue, to share with you that my previous teacher for over 10 years, prior to joining the school was a Sandan under the late Katsumi Yonzawa Sensei. I do, however, realize that this does not make me any sort of expert on Daito-ryu. I am not expert, but only a student!!! This post is my own, and of a personal nature. I do not speak for anyone or for the school, but only make what I think is a reasonable observation.

Furthermore, it is not my intention to offend anyone by my statements here. I do feel strongly that there are more important things other than "the politics." Especially when politics start skewing certain preceptions and aspects as they relate to technical abilities. The topic here that has been offered for discussion is "What is the Legitimacy of the Abashiri Group's Technique."

This is a very valid question. Those of us that have followed various web boards, assorted publications, and other informational venues have seen the wide and sometimes heated arguements as they relate to the current situation in mainline Daito-ryu. In a nut shell, many of the disccussions have centered around either succession or paperwork issues. While both are very important and show acheivment, to rule out the fact that senior students of the former Daitokan, whomever they might be, would not have a legitimate level of techincal ability, is unreasonable to me. Especially when many of the senior students, including those of the "Seishinkai Group", were direct and daily attending students of the late Tokimune Takeda Sensei for periods of 30-40 years.

In fact, Mr. Sano and Mr. Kato, both at different times, lived in the Daitokan over several years each. In fact, in 1988, when Tokimune Takeda Sensei's health started to decline, it was Mr. Kato that intially taught in the Daitokan when Tokimune Takeda couldn't, due to health reasons. Additionally, for me, I find it almost unbelievable to think that these senior students or any others not mentioned here who regulary attended daily instruction under the late soke, didn't obtain a high level of techinal ability is very unreasonble.

While I feel that Mr. Kondo is a fine practioner, student, and instructor who is, in my personal opinion, an asset to Daito Ryu; the fact remains if for no other reason he lived a great distance away from the source. Please do not mis-interput my intentions here. I am not trying to discrerdit a fine man like Mr. Kondo. But, those of us here in America, should be able to understand with such distance between ourselves and our teachers.

Simply put, we all should realize that as serious students of the arts, we have had repeated and direct exposure on a very regular basis. We should have at least as good if not better in some cases, superior technical abilities than those of distance. This is just a realistic and sensiable approach to the issue of legitimate abilities of these senior students.

It is however,unforunate, that many issues such as technical abilities are tied to political interests. I have found over the years that with politics, as with most important issues, there often is two sides to every story, with much truth attatched to both.

As for me, I wish both groups would or could find a way to re-unite, because we in Daito-ryu are all losing out in someway. Over my twenty years in the martial arts, I have never taken or had the opportunity to train with Mr. Kondo. In fact, I never really was afforded such an opportunity.

I have seen many if, not all, of Mr. Kondo's video tapes on Daito-ryu. He seems to be a fine practioner of the art, from my limited exposure. I have also seen the footage from the "Seishinkai" tapes. I think both are a fine resource for perservation aspects of Daito-Ryu Jujutsu techniques.

Personally, I don't believe that one can say based on video tapes that either my teachers, or Mr. Kondo's group, are more superior. There are all sorts of photographic procedures and staging that can enhance the quality of a particular production. I like to think of video footage as a representation of certain techniques, rather than a judging instrument for the quality or caliber of a particular pactinioner or group.

In closing, I would just like to add that I will continue to be a serious student of Daito-ryu, trying to remain as open-minded as the next when it comes to all of the politics involved. Please feel free to respond on this web board or to write to me personally at DTaylor901@home.com. Thank you very much for the opportunity to voice both my opinions and concerns.

[Carlos Estrella]

Since I was the one to start this posting, I felt compelled to respond to your comments.

First, thank you for giving us all an opinion from a member of the group in Abashiri. Regardless of the differences between the many practitioners within the many different "sects" of Daito Ryu, we are still in many ways part of the same budo family, and it's good to hear from a "budo brother."

Second, since you've seperated (or attempted to seperate) the politics from the technique, let me stick with that premise... you said "(w)e should have at least as good if not better in some cases, superior technical abilities than those of distance." That's all well and good, but Kano and others in your group have been seperated by death, from Tokimune Sensei, and by their resignations from Tokimune Sensei's dojo (the resignations have been posted on the forum in the Aikido Journal website) for several years. Also, to my knowledge, the Menkyo Kaiden possessed by Kondo Sensei is the ONLY complete transmission of the Daito Ryu "curriculum," which leads me to believe that since no one in your organization has received the Menkyo Kaiden, no one in your organization (even those who "taught in the Daitokan when Tokimune Takeda couldn't") is able to legitimately say they are capable of teaching the entire curriculum. (It's like me saying that because I was a substitute teacher I'm now qualified to be the principal.)

Like you, I would like to see all of us get together and settle this in a positive fashion. I am a Daito Ryu newbie, but I am not stupid... I know that the odds of Kano and Kondo Sensei's getting together for a beer are slim, but I DO believe that if ALL the groups did as Tokimune Sensei wished and nurtured a legitimate headmaster vs. bickering about it, the style would both be stronger and flourish as Aikido has. As for th "legitimacy of the technique," since I haven't seen techniques of your association performed by members of that association, I can't comment. What I CAN comment on is this: there are several organizations who learned Daito Ryu indirectly or directly from Takeda Sokaku, including yours. Aren't they ALL showing legitimate techniques AS THEY WERE TAUGHT THEM BY SOKAKU TAKEDA? If Kodo Sensei was shown more Aiki, or Hisa Sensei was already a talented Sumo wrestler, or his son Tokimune was given things no one else was... didn't they ALL disseminate Daito Ryu? If so, who received the Menkyo Kaiden from Sokaku Sensei? Who did those Mankyo holders give a Menkyo Kaiden to?

Regardless of the issues discussed here, I am honored to speak to you on this subject, and await your reply.

Respectfully,

Carlos Estrella

[Doug Taylor]

Dear Mr. Estrella,

Thank you for responding to my post. You are correct that regardless of various and beliefs that serious students of all arts should enjoy exchanges. I must admit that your initial post intrigued me. For me, it was a simple question as I interpreted it. The question is "Do these former senior students of the late Tokimune Takeda have skills?" This question has been approached on various other boards, but I have found that again and again it turns into a political issue and not a skills issue.

As I have previously stated the former senior students (and others not mentioned) studied for extended periods of 30-40 years, some daily, prior to the late Tokimune Takeda Soke's death. A question that one has to keep asking themselves who has not had the opportunity to be trained by these particular senior students is "How can they not be highly skilled?" When one thinks about the amount of time, location, and direct daily exposure to Tokimune then common sense, not politics, should dictate that they are very skilled.

I understand that there are political issues. These issues are things that I choose not to become directly entangled with now. I am only interested in being a student. Besides, most of the political issues have already been presented and discussed at length in various forums. My personal opinions or comments either way, would no help to settle this matter or be beneficial to Daito-ryu. Daito-ryu here in America, is experiencing enough growing pains without me making additional comments. I only felt obligated to share my experience about my teacher's technical abilities with you and others who read this board. My teachers are very skilled and I hope that others here might someday consider their opportunities to train with them to find out for themselves. America is a great country, and we are all free to make our own choices.

In addition, I hope, from my reply that you did not misinterpret any wrong intentions. Like you, I can only speak of limited matters regarding Daito-ryu. By no means did I intend to imply that my school is the sole and only Daito-ryu organization in the world. There are several schools that I am familiar with, some which you mentioned who are very legitimate. As we who have followed Daito-ryu and its history know, there are others as well!!

In closing, it is me sir that is honored to address you. Thank you for presenting the opportunity!!


Sincerely,

Doug Taylor