Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts

[MysticMan]

I just finished reading Meik Skoss's article on koyru.com entitled "Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts". I was wondering if there has ever been a case in which the history and tradition of a ryu has ever been passed on to a non-japanses headmaster or someone residing outside of Japan. Also, if so where there any special issues surrounding that decision?.

On a slightly different topic. Does the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai play any role in the process of succession?

Thanks,

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Dan Stahlnecker II

[John Lindsey]

Howdy,

I am surprised nobody has answered this yet...or maybe they want to but don't have their Nomex dogi on.

Don Angier is probably the best known and respected person claiming to have been given such a title. I am not sure of the extact details of this, so maybe Toby or someone else can add to it.

[MysticMan]

I didn't realizie it would be a controversial topic.

Dan,

As inferred by John Lindsey the only non-Japanese I am familiar with to formally receive transmission of a classical ryu would be Don Angier in Long Beach, Ca.

Don Angier's position as the legitament inheritor of Yanagi ryu is acknowledged by individuals including Stan Pranin, Kondo Kaysuyuki, Okamoto Saigo and the late Takamura Yukiyoshi. Kondo Katsuyuki it should be mentioned was even a student of Yoshida Kotaro and received some training in Yanagi ryu. He mentioned this personally to me on a visit to his home in 1994. Takamura Yukiyoshi received a hitherto unknown photograph of his own grandfather, Ohbata Shigeta from Don Angier around 1993. In this photograph with Ohbata Sensei appears several martial arts notables including Sokaku Takeda and Yoshida Kotaro. I believe a copy of this rare photograph is now in the archives of Stan Pranin who after careful examination is convinced of its authenticty.

Endorsements of this sort from authorative sources and high level Japanese instructors as well as Don's cosiderable physical and technical evidence go a long way in eliminating any question of his position as headmaster. As far as I know no other individual has undergone the scrutiny that Don has concerning this subject and not been found wanting. He has always been quite open about the facts of the ryus transmission and the legitament questions that have arisen surrounding it.

Some specifics of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei & Don Angiers relationship with Yoshida Kenji are the subject of an upcoming article appearing in Aikido Journal.


Toby Threadgill

[Luke Short]

Is it possable for a Non-Japanese to be the soke of a Japanese Koryu tradition?

I don't know anything about Mr. Angier on a personal level, and I don't have anything against him, but I do want to concider the relationship between the various Ryu-ha Soke and Shihan. Is Mr.Angier's position as Soke accepted and respected by the Soke and Shihan of the Ryu-ha in Japan? Is it important? I think it is.

I don't know the answer to this though, and I doubt if the Soke here in Japan have even heard of Mr. Angier (and perhaps to them it isn't even important), but I do know as far as the ryu-ha in Japan are concerned, since there are so few, they all know each other and in a lot of Ryu-ha, when a system passes hands, everyone here knows about it.

Does Mr.Angier represent a shift in Koryu from the domain of Japan to America? A foot in the door... And how many people feel, that a system residing outside of Japan has/would have to change? I know others have asked 'What is a Koryu?' but in the case of Mr.Angier is it still "Koryu" as the Japanese define it?

My own opinion is that once the Japanese culture has been removed from the school, it can no longer be "Koryu" in the sence, a great part of what Koryu means to me. I am NOT implying that the school is anyless valuable, or not worth doing. I only believe that it is no longer a "Japanese Koryu".Still Japanese budo, but not Koryu. No foriegner is going to have the Japanese culture as thier dominate culture, even if they lived here 10 or 20 years.To my way of thinking and experience have been living in Japan for the better part of ten years (I admit this makes me baised- not a snob though!) without the Japanese culture, it can't be a koryu school. Be it Tea, Flowers, or Swords. Koryu and Japanese culture cannot be seperated!

I am interested to see what others think about this.Especially those who have lived in and trained in Japan, and those who have never lived here.


RESPECTFULLY,

Luke

[John Lindsey]

Luke,

I don't think there is any other Japanese soke or shihan for the specific ryuha that Don has.

[Luke Short]

Well, of course Don's teacher was "Japanese", though concidering how much of his life he spent out of Japan, it might be safe to say that his dominate culture is not Japanese. He represents a unique case perhaps, and I think his views aren't shared by everyone.

I believe that although his line is not in Japan any longer, there are other lines of this school still around.

The people that Mr. Threadgill mention, such as Stan Pranin (not a soke of anything) and Mr. Kondo (one can present a case for Daitoryu not being a Koryu in the strictest sense) and Okamoto are not cases of Koryu Soke achnowledging Don as a soke.

Kondo is a member of the Shinkou Kai and the Koukai, but Don, Pranin and Okamoto are not. I wonder if his credentials would be rocognized by these two groups.

Mr. Threadgills argument that Don's physical and technical skills are excelent and therefore his position as soke is evident doesn't seem right to me. Mr. Kato, the soke of the Tatsumiryu no longer has the use of his voice, and Mr. Hoshi, soke of the Yagyu Shinganryu spent the entire time his ryuha was demonstrating at the Meiji demo last Nov. sitting in a chair directing his students because he is getting along in years. Does these limitations mean that these two people are not fit to be soke of thier schools any longer?

Further, what high level Japanese instructors is he talking about? Okamoto and Pranin are not Koryu people? Are the people Toby is thinking of Koryu soke or shihan? Maybe he could supply some names or resouces where I can read that they public acknowledge Don as Soke.

Again, I am not trying to attack Don's position as soke, nor how he inherited it. I hope no one takes it that way. I am only asking for specifics.

What is a "soke" in the US might not be a "soke" by the same deffintion in Japan. I think, if Koryu is going stay Koryu, it has to stay as purely culturally Japanese as possible! It is a Japanese thing let's leave as pure as possible, if it isn't Japanese any more, why even bother to use the Japanese words for it? How can we just pick and choose what elements of the Japanese culture to keep or throw away, and how could it be possable judge thier value as good or bad? Part of training in Koryu is allowing one's personality to be subsumed by the ryu, and one must be open to the change.

Luke,

You need to carefully read my post because your putting words and positions in my mouth that I clearly did not state and you are making assumptions that are incorrect.

You stated:

"I believe that although his line is not in Japan any longer, there are other lines of this school still around."

This assumption is incorrect. Don is unaware of any surviving Yoshida ha Shidare Yanagi ryu dojo in Japan. There are several schools that use the name "Yanagi ryu" but they are not lineal descendents of the Yanagi ryu that Don Angier inherited. Just as there are at least three unrelated Yoshin ryu traditions surviving in Japan there are also unrelated Yanagi ryu traditions. The ryu Don inherited is the family style of the Yoshida Clan from Kyushu. This clan was historicly associated with the losing side during the Satsuma rebellion. Yoshida Kotaro was the partriarch (soke) of the family and passed the art to his son Kenji. Kenji, before his death, adopted Don as a yoshi because he had no male heir to pass the art to.

Next you stated:

The people that Mr. Threadgill mention, such as Stan Pranin (not a soke of anything) and Mr. Kondo (one can present a case for Daitoryu not being a Koryu in the strictest sense) and Okamoto are not cases of Koryu Soke achnowledging Don as a soke.

I don't believe I ever said any of these individuals were soke of koryu? Did I?

What I stated was:

"Endorsements of this sort from authorative sources and high level Japanese instructors as well as Don's cosiderable physical and technical evidence go a long way in eliminating any question of his position as headmaster. (of Yanagi ryu)"

I think it is considerable that Katsuyuki Kondo recognizes Don in this position as he was a direct student of the previous headmaster, Yoshida Kotaro. I heard this with my own ears during a visit to Kondo's home. If you think that is unimportant, that is your perogative. If you do not find that considerable I see no need to convince you otherwise.

I also think it is considerable that Stan Pranin, the most authorative source of accurate historical documentation on the aiki arts recognizes Don in this postition as well. Historians opinions in matters like this are to me every bit as important ( if not more so ) than other martial artists, especially from unrelated traditions. Petty jealousies and internal politics are less likely to color the opinion of a historian. A historian bases his postition on documentable facts. I honestly find it amusing and enlightening that you so quickly dismiss a historian as well respected as Stan Pranin here. In my opinion it is most damaging to your apparent logic.


You next stated:

"Mr. Kato, the soke of the Tatsumiryu no longer has the use of his voice, and Mr. Hoshi, soke of the Yagyu Shinganryu spent the entire time his ryuha was demonstrating at the Meiji demo last Nov. sitting in a chair directing his students because he is getting along in years. Does these limitations mean that these two people are not fit to be soke of thier schools any longer?"

I done believe so. But your argument here is totally unrelated to my point. Please again read my post carefully.

Lets assume for a moment that these gentlemen were under scrutiny and there was question concerning their claims as headmasters. Lets also assume that they were in good physical condition. Now lets assume they were mediocre technicians and crummy teachers on a good day. Would that damage their claim as being legitament headmasters. It might very well!

Lastly you stated:

" I think, if Koryu is going stay Koryu, it has to stay as purely culturally Japanese as possible!"

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. (I assume you've read the "koryu snobs" thread here on e-budo) I however had a Japanese Sensei who was raised in the pre ww2 era of Japan and then later lived for many years in the west. He would disagree with you in the most strident of terms. And BTW, he met Don, acknowledged Don's position and in fact considered Don a "meijin". In his later years he and Don became good friends. Also, as easily dismissed an expert as you apparently find Stan Pranin, he considers Don, and I quote here: "one of the finest martial artists I have ever met"

The original question was:

"I was wondering if there has ever been a case in which the history and tradition of a ryu has ever been passed on to a non-Japanese headmaster or someone residing outside of Japan."

I believe in my original post I simply answered that question to the best of my ability. I dont want to get into any further pissing contests over what a "koryu" is. Those emminently qualified to comment on that have already posted and adequately covered that debate elsewhere.

Sincerely,

Toby Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-23-2000 at 01:25 PM]

[Walker]

The new Aikido Journal has been published with an article about Mr. Angier so you can all judge for yourself. I hate the agonizing wait for my copy

Think about this - I understand that Mr. Angier spent years saying he was practicing aikijujutsu and was poopooed by many if not all of the aiki practitioners in the US. This was before Stanly “rediscovered” Daito Ryu. Aikijujutsu was a myth or at best a dead art. Heck, if you asked an Aikidoka in the US in those days Aikido was the art of Tohei Sensei inspired by some shadowy O’Sensei guy (JUST KIDDING YOU GUYS!!! I know how y’all can fly off the handle.)

So Mr. Angier definitely started from zero in terms of acceptance. If you think about it, if there hadn’t been cross pollinating between the Yoshida family art and S. Takeda, Mr. Angier might still be ignored. Stan certainly wouldn’t have cared and wouldn’t have seen evidence of the art in Japan in the past. It would have been one family art of many (many that slip quietly into history all the time without a peep) with only some scrolls and a fairy tale story of how a young American boy became Japanese and learned a martial art.

This isn’t to say we arent right to be sceptical of people’s claims. At times I shudder to think of the effect the veracity of Mr. Angiers story could have. It does not mean that we should believe any joe with a fairy story. What if Colin H. had showed up out of the blue saying he had studied an art that uses swords way longer than normal. Ha! Ha! Ha! Mr. Colin, yeah sure - big *ss sword (back away slooooly, show no fear.....)

I see a reason for arts to remain with the Japanese families that have sheltered them thus far, but it is not an iron clad rule. What if there is no Japanese to take over or that person is unworthy? It is up to the headmaster and the art‘s tradition who becomes the next leader and if that person is a blue green bipedal life form from under the sea then that’s that. One would hope that It Sensei is trained properly and has the knowledge needed for the job and I would hope that the public at large would speak out if It got out of control and started putting on airs or molted into Godzilla and started brainsucking his students and passers by, but It would be Soke.

[Edited by Walker on 06-23-2000 at 09:12 AM]

[Richard Elias]

Hi Toby,
I just caught this thread or I would have chimed in sooner, but, as usual you've done a fine job and I really have not much to add.
Although...
In regards to Don's teacher Yoshida Kenji, he spent most of his life in Japan raised as samurai. By the time Don met him in 1948 Kenji was already in his 50's. He had only left Japan shortly before their involvment in the war. The Japanese culture was very much a part of his life. He still wore kimono around the house, and even required Don to learn how to make them. No Japanese clothing was available then, so they took apart the ones Kenji had and recreated them. Don was also made to learn Japanese etiquette in all of it's forms. I believe even on his first visit to Japan he recieved compliments on his manner and etiquette observed. They were suprised that he knew the things he did, as no one not Japanese should. It had also been commented that his art(judging from it's content) was very old.

As Toby stated, Don was adopted in Japanese manner and given a Japanese name. Those who do know him in Japan refer to him by this name by their own choosing. As far as the Soke title is concerned, it was given to Don by Kenji (who was actually Japanese), he did not bestow it upon himself. He even has the family Hon-ko. And this has been since the 1950's when most everyone in the U.S. didn't know what the term means (most, even those who use it, still don't) He uses the term sparingly, usually only in correspondence and as an introduction at seminars. We, his students, do not refer to him by this as it is inappropriate. It's either Sensei or Don. I believe, Threadgill-Sensei, that Takamura-Sensei even refferd to Don as Hakujin Samurai, and treated him as equal. Kondo, I was told, went to great lengths to admonish Don that it is his responsibility to Kenji, Kotaro and the Yoshida clan that he see's to it the art is passed-on.

So, Luke, say what you will, believe what you will. It doesn't really matter. If you don't think it's Koryu or you don't believe it's real, fine. All the better for us.
We know what we have.

"If you only knew the power of the Dark side"

Hey Rich,

Good post. Something you said sparked a funny memory. When Don and I were in Japan last time, Nobiyuki Tai took us to visit a gentleman near Mito that had an incredible collection of arms, swords, armor and various matial arts related objects. This guys collection was absolutely stunning. Interestingly, he sort of quizzed Don on what some of these items were. I guess it was a sort of "stump the gaijin" game before he explained what the items actually were. The guy was just incredulous when Don started explaining what they were and how they were used. Later that evening Don even showed him an intricate hojo tie used to secure a type of arrow quiver to a yoroi. After that the guy started bringing out his entire collection of blades. Don demonstrated the proper kata for inspecting a sword, explaining to me every why and whatfor. The gentleman told me he had never seen a foreigner with such detailed knowledge of Japanese martial implements. Nobiyuki translated to me this gentlemans admonishment " Young man you watch and listen to your teacher. His knowledge of these things is dying out. He asked several times what Don's sensei's name was. He just kept scratched his head and nodding with a big smile on his face while Don explained.

It seems this guy also collected big American cars from before WW2. He had a whole garage full of these beauties. He found it very amusing that we did not know much about old Duesenbergs, Cords, Packards or Cadillacs, but did know about Japanese weapons and associated objects.

On the ride back to Miles Kesslers place in Iwama, Nobiyuki Tai laughed himself silly. He said "you two guys were priceless. He must have thought you were ghosts or something." I never really got the joke but the evening was a lot of fun.

Toby Threadgill

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-23-2000 at 04:54 PM]

[Richard Elias]

Thank you Threadgill Sensei, I'm glad you approved of my post.

I thought I would also add this.

"I was wondering if there has ever been a case in which the history and tradition of a ryu has ever been passed on to a non-japanses headmaster or someone residing outside of Japan. Also, if so where there any special issues surrounding that decision?."


This is how this tread started.
There is no mention or reference to Koryu in particular.
Though I realize this is the Koryu forum, it's also about the history and trditions of the Koryu. Whether you believe an art is Koryu or not is on another (actually several other) thread.

In regards to Don's situation, his teacher Kenji had no children and no other students. He was in the U.S. not in Japan when he died. Due to familial conflicts I believe he felt he couldn't go home. If he had not passed the art on to Don, the art would have died. It was his obligation to his family and the art to see to it that it was passed on to a worthy successer. I don't think he would have bothered to pass the art on to someone outside of the family, let alone an American right after WW2, if he didn't think him worthy.

Additionally, I ask this;

If an art is passed on completely, with all of it's customs and traditions intact, and the inheritor continues a strict uncomprimizing adherence to the traditions of the art. Does that diminish the art, as a Koryu, just because it was passed on to a non-Japanese?
If the art itself hase not changed?

The man is only a representative of the traditions of the art. Are we to judge the arts by their content or the ethinicity of the caretaker.

From what I understand of the interests of the modern Japanese people, other arts in the future may have to be passed on to non-Japanese, for the survival of the art.

But, maybe I just don't understand. I'm just a martial artist.

[MarkF]

I am skeptical of just about everything which makes claims and are easily questioned. Everyone here knows that, especially Toby. We have been disagreeing in an amiable way for, well, a while, and he even emailed me to keep it up as he will do the same. I respect a person who can do that, still appreciate someone, even if there are many differences.

Firstly, Daito ryu aikijujutsu a koryu? Hardly. It is gendai, not because of the way it is done, but because of timing, that is all. Stan Pranin is a good storyteller. But if I were to pick, say, two people who make fanciful claims and I had to believe these two, then Don Angier and Meik Skoss are the two. They may have little to do in this debate, but I don't see it as a debate. As cynical as I am, these two have become what others say, and I would have a hard time convincing others of my ilk. But there are exceptions to every rule and these guys are it. Toby has been more than honest about what he does and how he feels, even to his own detriment in these threads, but, well, I have since educated myself to at least be as open as anyone who still believes judo to be a complete budo art, and not just a sport. Don Angier has accomplished what the charlatans only dream of while deceiving people. I may have my doubts as to daito ryu's claims of proprietary aiki, but I have seen and read enough to know. Whatever Mr. Angier's claims are, I sincerely doubt he would need even to speak of them. That is what kind of people of whom I speak.

As far as a "license of transmission," as far as I am concerned, I wish one of these guys would come out and take a look at my 86 Mercury, but as for honesty in advertising be it purposeful or not, the two mentioned above have easily dismissed any doubt I have of their abilities and honesty. If a koryu practitioner, such as Meik, who lives the life of a Japanese, can also play judo and have a good time doing it, hey, who am I to doubt them? I have also personally lived in another culture not of my own (not Japanese) and have been mistaken many times for being what I am not, but at the time, I sure felt like I was, so with that experience in mind, why is it so hard to believe Don Angier is anything but as he is described here? Is he Japanese? Well, possibly to a blind person he is. Or on the phone, not knowing what he looks like may also tell a different story. But my own experiences notwithstanding, I have absolutely no problem believing that someone who is not of a culture originally, who may appear as any other gaijin to the uninitiated, who has so immersed himself into a culture and language, how in the world should I think anything else? In other words, if it can happen to me, and it has, it can happen to anyone, believe me. I do have an abiding interest in the aiki arts, but only as it can be applied to what I do. I do not have the time left to start anew. Mssers. Angier and Skoss are as Japanese to me as any other Japanese. Just because photos show otherwise, does not mean a picture does not, in fact, lie.

Sincerely,

[Joanne Miller]

Originally posted by MysticMan
On a slightly different topic. Does the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai play any role in the process of succession?

Although these 2 associations are much respected I am told that sometimes these 2 association of Kobudo sometimes, try to "help out" (putting this politely so as to speak )in individual ryuha affairs when it's really the ryuha's personal internal matter.

How/Who/When the previous headmaster/representive wish to pass down his ryugi no matter how "unconvectional" or "hard to swallow" by the public is entirely up to her/his wishes and does not need "approval" from outside "advice". The head master reserves total rights regardless if it's the "right" or "wrong" way to public opinion.That's my "round-about-way" opinion with regards to the threads above this

That's why there are some ryugi which decline to being to be a member of them. If a ryuha is not a member it doesn't neccessary mean that they are not recognized.I feel there's a difference between not being a member of these 2 groups because the ryugi representive declines to join and not being a member because of being refused membership after an "application". In addition politics does play a part as well..

To go a bit off topic there are couple of old authentic styles which are not members of these 2 groups.I affectionately call them "hidden fringe group" ryugi and I tend to keep a lookout for them

Cheers,

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 06-24-2000 at 10:35 PM]

[Brently Keen]

I have to agree with Joanne here. Not all koryu have chosen to join or are interested in joining these two fine organizations. It is up to the individual headmaster whether or not they want to be associated with other koryu or remain independent. One thing that seems to be for sure in this whole debate is there are exceptions to nearly every rule.

Brently Keen