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Thread: Dai Nippon Butokukai

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    Sorry Scott
    I started a new job last week and as such I haven't had much of a chance to dig around.
    In the mean time, here's a quick bit of Google Jutsu:

    1) From Cyberbudo.com written by Terry Wingrove (who worked for Sasagawa in Japan):

    "the 30’s the political climate of Japan was geared toward “Ultra-Nationalism” and the war with China, against this background and on the advice of Konishi and Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) Funakoshi applied for recognition with the Butokukai in Kyoto (this quasi-govermental body was set up in 1895 to oversee martial arts in Japan). It’s interesting to note that initially Karate was recognised by the Butokukai as a branch of the Judo department ?? Then we come to what I call the “Dark Ages” the period from 1939-1945 when nobody can seem to remember exactly where they were, just look at the vagueness at this period in the biographies of all the modern masters such as Gogen Yamaguchi, Nakayama, Ohtsuka even Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of Aikido) I’ll throw light on this very,very interesting period in a later article.After WW2 and the relaunching of Karate in Japan in this austere period how did Karate become organised on style and national basis ? This was down to a “Godfather” who took Karate (and other martial arts) under his wing put food in the mouths of hungry karate teachers all over Japan and used this Budo platform together with his gambling empire to become the most powerful man in Japan. This man was Ryoichi Sasagawa (1899-1995), his biography is well known in the public domain, a class A war criminal imprisoned by the Allies in Tokyo who on his release in 1948 set-up a gambling empire based on motorboat racing and who used his vast fortune to back Karate, Aikido, Judo, Kendo, and other martial arts. By 1970 I had been working at FAJKO/WUKO in Tokyo for 2 years and was given the job of organising the Martial Arts Day exhibition at Expo’70 in Osaka this was when I fully realised the influence that Sasagawa had on Budo in Japan with 1000 karate dan grades performing kata simultaneously and displays of every martial art that lasted from 10-00a.m. to 6-00p.m. non stop.No-one refused Sasagawas request to attend and in the end the logistics were mind boggling with hundreds of VIP’s to be catered for from all the disciplines. The one thing that came home to me was that money did solve a lot of problems if it’s used correctly and people were more likely to be concillatory if you took away their financial worries. I don’t mean that Sasagawa was a free meal ticket but that he would use all his resources contact wise (these were the best) and financially to achieve polarity and a unified direction for Karate. This manifested itself in the day to day running of FAJKO/WUKO in Tokyo where all the masters would come almost on a daily basis to collect their own mail or sort out the association’s problems openly,so on many days we would have Nakayama, Ohtsuka, Yamaguchi, Iwata and lots of behind the scenes power brokers all in the offices together and decisions were made very quickly by Eriguchi in consultation with the masters. It is very interesting to record that in the early 70’s just how much came in by telex to FAJKO’s offices and about 40% of the communications were “bad mouthing” or telling tales on particular local problems, it could be re official representation in a particular country or complaints re the life-style/personal habits of a visiting Japanese instructor all of which had to be handled by the Tokyo office.Looking back now I realise that the “adhesive” that stuck it all together was the personal respect between the group of genro (elders) particularly re Eriguchi a very large man in his younger years with an extensive military background from the old school of “respect is earned not demanded”. He was the perfect ring master for the FAJKO circus, nothing was too much trouble if it achieved its goal of harmony and progress for FAJKO. I have seen him use the whole range of human emotion and his psychology was second to none, his formula consisted of: The result = whatever has to done to reach this goal. Time after time I watched him juggle egos, prejudices, demands, truths, lies and it still amazes me how he did it for so many years. I think one important fact was that all the genro (elders) respected him and felt he was their personal confidante. He used to say,”When people sit down to a meal in a restaurant, all they want is the food, they don’t care about the cooks fighting in the kitchen”.Over the years I’ve heard every type of abuse,accusation,rumour,criticism and bad mouthing directed at Sasagawa, Eriguchi and other FAJKO/WUKO Board members but the truth is it worked and “it was the only game in town”. I’m sure I am biased but the system worked well until the masters started to die.The fractionalisation in all the styles on the deaths of Ohtsuka, Nakayama, Yamaguchi, Iwata and even outside FAJKO with the demise of Oyama was the saddest thing I have experienced from an administration point of view over the past 50 years. It’s just like a game of snakes and ladders and it seems that over the past 10 years Karate administration has had a lot of bad luck and keeps landing on the snakes.I realise that it will never go back to the “old days” when the masters word was law and Eriguchi only had to contend with a lot of old men that had grown up against a very rigid organised background and if he pressed the right button he could achieve his aims for FAJKO."

    2) From the Aikido Journal:

    "SASAGAWA, RYOICHI (b. c. 1899). President of Japan Motorboat Association and philanthropist. Donates large sums of money in support of various martial arts including aikido. The AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO and YOSHINKAN AIKIDO are regular beneficiaries."

    3) From Communityguide.com:

    "DOJO HISTORY

    All Japan Budo Federation Nippon Seibukan in an International association with Branches in over 38 different countries. The World headquarters is located in the old capital of Japan, Kyoto and was officiall opened in 1969 by the late founder Masafumi Suzuki Kancho, holder of 5th Dan in Judo, 8th Dan in both Kendo and Iaido, 9th Dan in Jujitsu and the rare and ultimate acheivement of 10th Dan in Goju-Ryu Karate. He had the opportunity of training under such masters as Miyagi, Shimabuku, Toyama and Konken. Not only a martial artists but Suzuki Sensei also acted in several Japanese Action movies and refereed a boxing match between Mohammad Ali and the Japanese champion Ioki in 1979. He also held the world record for roof tile breaking, 32 to be exact. Suzuki was the chairman for the All Japan Karate Federation and assistant to Ryoichi Sasagawa, one of the original founders of the World Union of Karatedo Organisations (W.U.K.O). At the time of it's opening it was the worlds largest Budo academy. It held Classes in KARATEDO (Okinawan Goju-Ryu), JUDO (Kodokan), KENDO (All Japan Kendo Federation), IAIDO (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), AIKIDO (Ueshiba Ryu), JUJITSU (Yawarra), KOBUDO (Ryukyu), NAGINATA, JUKENDO and amateur WRESTLING (Fila)."

    4) And finally from e-budo's own Ellis Amdur, from aikiweb:

    "Ellis Amdur09-09-2004, 09:04 AM
    Hi Dennis -

    I posted this over at Aikido Journal as well. Perhaps it's of enough general interest to warrant a cross-post.

    The Kokusai Budoin, which was mentioned here, is, in my opinion, a rather odd organization. It is an "umbrella" organization of both classic and modern martial arts in Japan. It was organized and directed, for many years, by Prince Higashikuni (Hirohito's uncle), who lived over 100 years. Higashikuni was quite a remarkable figure - according to Bergamini's JAPAN'S IMPERIAL CONSPIRACY, he was the conduit between the imperial family and prewar fascist, terrorist and gangster organizations. In social gatherings, there was always even more of a right wing tinge than other Japanese martial arts organizations. Sasagawa, the war criminal/right wing godfather/mega-criminal/world philanthropist was a major financial sponsor."

    So there we go, pick the bones out of that lot...

    Best wishes
    Simon
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    bump

    Hello, and sorry for the bump. I'd like to learn a bit more on the subject, have a few quick questions, and hope some here can help.

    How often does the Butokukai have events...is it often or rarely? Also, is it possible to get a list of past events and participants?

    Thank you.
    'Leaves fall.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlan View Post
    bump

    Hello, and sorry for the bump. I'd like to learn a bit more on the subject, have a few quick questions, and hope some here can help.

    How often does the Butokukai have events...is it often or rarely? Also, is it possible to get a list of past events and participants?

    Thank you.
    Follow www.dnbk.org to find answers to most of your questions.

    However,in sequence (1) depends where, but not often. (2) I doubt it. Hamada Hanshi based on your side of the pond is the director of DNBK international.

    Osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

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    Thank you.
    'Leaves fall.'

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    Default Dai Nippon Butokukai, International Martial Arts Federation

    Hi. My post is wayyyyyyy too long, but this is an interesting discussion. I’d like to address what I think may be some factual errors; I have good refs for some, still searching for answers to other questions. Perhaps this discussion might benefit from a bit more rigor, and hopefully some lurker will fill out the discussion with more data and less opinion.

    "The DNBK was a governmental organization until WWII; the American occupation of Japan disbanded it since it was considered part of the imperial government organization. The organization has been restructured in the late 1950s (not sure about date) and currently exists as an interdisciplinary Japanese M.A. organization. I happen to know it has a Karate department in it.

    Amir"
    This is an issue of much confusion, even in Japan.

    The Dai Nippon Butokukai (DNB) was recognized by the Japanese government, and did eventually control school budo instruction and much of organized martial arts in Japan.

    But the DNBK was not banned; actually, although the Occupation authorities looked into labeling it a banned organization (famously MacArthur's chief of intelligence, General Charles Willoughby [who MacArthur supposedly termed his 'favorite fascist] opined that it ought to be banned based on its name alone), but they did not.

    When the Occupation (a couple of different sections) examined the DNBK they realized that almost every single able-bodied Japanese bureaucrat and politician was a member, and often had been since they were children, or early in their political careers. Logical enough because the DNBK was responsible for school budo instruction under the Ministry of Education. But banning the entire membership of the DNBK would have meant those folks, many of whom were key to postwar reconstruction efforts, would have been banned, too. (The impetus to ban the whole lot came in part from the fact that PM Tojo Hideki was the Chairman, DNBK, and the senior advisors include a number of banned senior military officers, etc.)

    There were some key people in the Occupation that were actually sympathetic to the notion of allowing Japan to continue to enjoy its traditional martial arts. So, after a year of examining the issue and discussions inside the Occupation, finally a list of 'reforms' were made. There was a meeting between the DNBK reps (still tracking exactly who was there), the Occupation reps (certain staff section reps), and some Japanese govt reps. The list of reforms were presented, along with a list of people that would have to resign (because of their personal issues with war crimes, etc.).

    The DNBK reps took the papers, the org huddled for some time, and then voluntarily disbanded; their official response was along the lines of 'forget it, we're not reforming anything'. Surprised everyone involved, I understand. This is well documented but seldom read, even by Japanese, as a lot is buried in Occupation archives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Bauer
    "The DNBK of today should not be confused with the DNBK of pre WW2. Despite claims to the contrary they are nothing alike and are not the same organization. ........
    Will Bauer / Wado ryu"
    I think Mr. Bauer is correct, but in fairness, it seems to me that some of this confusion is engendered by the DNBK’s own propaganda; their own official history (the pamphlets, not the website) tracks back to the original DNBK, and would have you believe they are the same. I don’t think so, though certainly no one seems to have seriously contested that claim (I be interested if anyone has). I think it would actually be hard for anyone to contest the ownership of the logo, etc., since the prewar DNBK disbanded.

    I have been told that when the new organization was established in the early 1950's, they were assisted by a Prime Minister who'd learned kendo as a kid from a DNBK teacher (as many school budo instructors were); he supposedly arranged for the new DNBK to receive the 1m yen endowment of the old organization.

    However, I have no proof of this endowment, or the involvement of that PM, and am still looking. Overall I find this not very credible; 1m yen in the early 1950's would have been a huge amount of money, a huge endowment. Seeing the DNBK in its current, modest circumstances makes me think this is simply an apocryphal story (but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence....). If you sat on the equivalent of tens of millions of US$, would you put your HQ in a modest house attached to the backside of a Japanese temple (which is where the DNBK HQ resides) and have only parttime staff? No, you’d have a modern HQ building and staff like everyone else. There are big egos that need to be stroked in these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian Cyr
    …………..
    Can you please explain how and why they are so much different? It is still the same name at the same place ruled by the same people (The Japanese Imperial family under Fushimi Higashi) As far as I am concerned there is nothing much of values to be part of some organization ruled by such a double faced group as the Japanese imperial family considering all the horrors they have committed in Asia. The organization should have just been disbanded completely. Quite funny to see a bunch of gaijin be so infatuated by this organization that used to promote Japanese militarism in modern Asia. I strongly feel that Japanese culture should not be promoted by such a group that is many times connected with the Uyoku. This can only contribute to hatred and misunderstnading of what Japanese budo really is especially by the Chinese and Koreans.
    __________________
    In Gassho,

    Sebastien Cyr
    Actually, the new DNBK seemingly has nothing to do with the current Imperial family.

    The abbot of the temple where it’s housed (the Shorenin, a beautiful Zen temple, pretty popular with Japanese visitors but not so well known to foreign visitors) is Fushimi Higashi. IIRC his family was pre-war minor nobility, not part of the mainstream Imperial family, and it was his sister who married into the Imperial line. Postwar, the new Constitution abolished the peerage system, thus taking their noble titles away. Even most of the Imperial family ended up as commoners. The abbot and his family are now commoners.

    Again, offhand I’d say any notion of current DNBK links with the real Imperial family are strained at best and fabricated at worst. Think of some gents sitting about some shabby club in London, talking about the Raj, and touting their connection to the English throne. Does the Queen take notice or refute every nutjob in the United Kingdom, or vet the pronouncements of their deluded followers? She’d be pretty busy……

    The Showa Emperor was a patron of the martial arts; IIRC the Budokan foundation endowment was from the Emperor Hirohito, and it is for preservation and teaching of traditional Japanese martial arts, modern and ancient. There is an Imperial box in the Nihon Budokan for a reason; but I don’t see evidence of any Imperial support of the DNBK. Zip.

    In the event, secondary evidence (i.e., programs, notes, guides, ads in programs, interviews with Japanese members and martial artists) indicates the Dai Nihon Butokukai membership is by and large a Osaka-Kyoto area kendo concern, with a scattering of karate and some nearby regional members, which seems to jive with the board composition. The current director is an Osaka kendo sensei.

    Its membership and influence in Tokyo seem quite small. Most Japanese have never heard of the postwar Butokukai
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    " Brian Owens Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Twist
    ...are they promoting traditional Japanese budo or martial art sports? Seeing as Karatedo and kendo are there, looks like they are promoting sports.
    Karatedo and Kendo are traditional martial arts.

    Sure there is a sporting aspect to Karatedo (as with Judo and some other martial arts), but if one has ever set foot inside a traditional dojo (as opposed to a "kurrotty studio" or "McDojo") there should be no doubt that it is also a Budo.

    Kendo is a competitive sport, but -- as with Karatedo -- there is a profound link to the Martial Arts & Ways of the past.

    Among traditional dojo, the line dividing Koryu and Gendai Budo/Bujutsu/Bugei is often a blurry one, of more importance to historians than to Bugeisha.

    That's how I feel, at any rate.
    __________________
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian--- "
    AFIK the DNBK only promotes Japanese budo; I'm not sure they'd use the term competitive sport for anything they do (I don't think they have a 'sports chanbara' division yet.)

    These terms (budo / sports/ whatever) used to confuse me, and I suspect others. However, this is perhaps one issue (among millions!) in which my opinion does not count, so I use the list of gendai budo from the Japanese Ministry of Education (which has some authority in this; it oversaw the DNBK, and oversees school budo in Japan now).

    The distinctions seem quite clear. I understand there are 7 gendai budo: kendo, karatedo, kyudo, judo, jukendo (rifle bayonet), naginatado, aikido, and sumo. Not traditional, not sports, all modern budo, all established after the Meiji Restoration (1867) (NOTE: even sumo, which is a modern martial way). To qualify as a kobudo with the Japanese government, one has to present evidence that their art existed prior to 1867 and there is a direct link from that pre-Meiji art and the current practioners (and no ninpo group has ever produced such evidence, despite providing ‘papers’, according to the Director of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai). Some other arts are subsumed in those (e.g., the Kendo Federation includes modern iai and jodo).

    It seems quite clear; some issues that confuse folks (Japanese, too, not only foreigners) is that some of the modern gendai budo incorporate kobudo arts. Notable examples, all of which I saw yesterday demonstrated at the Culture Day kobudo demos at Meiji Shrine, include:
    - Shinto Muso Ryu jojutsu (practiced in at least two separate organizations, but also as a part of the All Japan Kendo Federation’s jo division – both orgs demo’d)
    - Wado ryu jujutsu kenpo (practiced in Wado ryu karatedo)

    These are preserved ancient (well, at least pre-1867) martial arts that are practiced as part of modern martial ways. (Not sure if these qualify as 併伝武術 ‘heiden bujutsu’, guess they would.)  But that does not make Wado ryu karatedo itself a koryu style, nor do any (Japanese) practitioners I know make that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan View Post
    ........
    2) From the Aikido Journal:
    "SASAGAWA, RYOICHI (b. c. 1899). President of Japan Motorboat Association and philanthropist. Donates large sums of money in support of various martial arts including aikido. The AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO and YOSHINKAN AIKIDO are regular beneficiaries."
    Sasagawa (sometimes pronounced Sasakawa) Ryoichi was many things. He also founded the Japan Foundation, which funds many US-Japan cultural events. http://www.jpf.go.jp/e/

    His son, Sasagawa Takashi, is currently Chairman, Japan Karatedo Foundation. I had a meeting with him last week; he is a very interesting gent. (see http://www.karatedo.co.jp/index3.htm)

    Establishing a foundation is a very high hurdle in Japan, requiring a mountain of cash in the bank and some serious political backing. Only a handful of martial arts organizations in Japan are foundations, like the Japan Karatedo Foundation, Kodokan Foundation, Aikikai, etc.; Sasagawa played a key role in pulling together the money and political support to establish most if not all of those martial arts foundations, but also did for tons of others arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan View Post
    ………
    2) From the Aikido Journal:
    "SASAGAWA, RYOICHI (b. c. 1899). President of Japan Motorboat Association and philanthropist. Donates large sums of money in support of various martial arts including aikido. The AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO and YOSHINKAN AIKIDO are regular beneficiaries."
    .........
    I am not sure there was much more monetary support for most of them beyond the initial funding of their foundations - not that much more was needed for most. (BTW, I'm not sure the new DNBK is a foundation, would be nice to know.) In a prosperous postwar Japan, where most of the men controlling the country and its wealth had been required to take school budo prewar , bringing them together was not so hard; I suspect it would be nearly impossible today. (BTW establishing a Non-Profit Organization in Japan is much easier, but does not infer tax-exempt / tax deductible contribution status, which is another, separate issue).

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan View Post
    4) And finally from e-budo's own Ellis Amdur, from aikiweb:
    ................
    The Kokusai Budoin, which was mentioned here, is, in my opinion, a rather odd organization. It is an "umbrella" organization of both classic and modern martial arts in Japan. It was organized and directed, for many years, by Prince Higashikuni (Hirohito's uncle), who lived over 100 years. Higashikuni was quite a remarkable figure...."
    I’m sorry, but I don’t find a combined gendai / kobudo martial arts organization odd at all.

    In a sense, the International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF) filled the postwar vacuum left from the dissolution of the Dai Nihon Butokukai. The DNBK had gendai budo and kobudo divisions until well into WWII; the main kobudo divisions withered when the militarists that took over pushed archery out in favor of rifle marksmanship, and sojutsu / spearmanship in favor of jukendo. So, IMAF had gendai budo and kobudo sections. Even the prewar Kodokan had regular jo, bo, and iai classes, and a kobudo 'section' of some form or another.

    Taken in context of the flow of Japanese history, the sole art, postwar organizations such as the Kendo Federation are actually the oddities, not older capstone organizations like IMAF or DNB.

    I guess you could say that IMAF was ‘organized and directed’ by Prince Higashikuni as its (largely honorary / ceremonial) Chairman, but to clarify IMAF was not founded or run by Prince Higashikuni; he was in fact the second Chairman (his brother was the first).

    To quote IMAF’s website on the issue: (see http://www.imaf.com/history.html)

    “IMAF was officially founded in January, 1952 by Master Kyuzo Mifune, Master Kazuo Ito and Shizuya Sato of Judo; Master Hakudo Nakayama and Master Hiromasa Takano of Kendo; Master Hironori Otsuka of Karate-do, and Kiyotaka Wake and Sueo Kiyoura. The first Chairman was Prince Tsunenori Kaya (uncle of Emperor Hirohito, and former lieutenant general in the Imperial Army), and was followed by Prince Higashikuni (the first post World War II Prime Minister, the only member of the Japanese Imperial Family to have held this post).

    As in many superficial examinations of organizations' history, his role and leadership may be 'somewhat exaggerated' (this is not limited to Japanese organizations!!!).

    In the event, IMAF was largely organized and run by its first Director, Ito Kazuo, the famed Kodokan judoka, along with his contemporaries, largely Tokyo-based famous martial artists, including
    • Kyuzo Mifune, Judo
    • Hakudo Nakayama, Kendo
    • Hiromasa Takano, Kendo
    • Hironori Otsuka, Karatedo
    • Takasue Ito, Judo
    • Tsugiyoshi Ota, Iaido
    • Gozo Shioda, Aikido
    • Katsuo Yamaguchi, Iaido
    • Gogen Yamaguchi, Karatedo
    • Hirokazu Kanazawa, Karatedo
    • Kazuo Sakai, Karatedo
    • Katsuo Yamaguchi, Iaido
    • Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Aikikai Aikido, and son of the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba
    • Taizaburo Nakayama, iai / battojutsu (of Toyama ryu fame)

    This is a pretty exhaustive list, essentially a Who's Who of postwar Japan budo, at least the Tokyo area. Why? Because there was no other capstone martial arts organization to bring them together as the Butokukai did until it disbanded.

    Later, as these gents and their friends were able to establish their own organizations, some with support from Sasakawa et al, in some cases their direct involvement in IMAF dwindled, but to my knowledge they all stayed active and on good terms with IMAF until their deaths.

    (NOTE: In the interest of full disclosure, I am a regular member of IMAF, and an advisor to its board. But I am also a member of the Budokan Budogakuin, the Kodokan, and other Japanese martial arts organizations, for what that’s worth.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    ………….. What these organisations used (and still use) as a selling point was their right to award imperial titles (Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi) because of their backing by the royal family.
    This is a real morass, and I venture there only with great trepidation. These are not imperial titles, but rather honorary titles used in Imperial Japan. There is a distinct difference.

    There are many organizations that claim the right to award these traditional titles (including organizations in the US without benefit of even being exposed to Japan in decades) but I understand that that only a few, including the Kendo Federation and IMAF, actually have permission from members of the Imperial family. Notably the Karatedo and Judo organizations do not grant titles.

    In prewar Japan the Ministry of Education granted the martial arts titles through the Butokukai, and blessed the titles. Does the DNBK draw on the old DNBK tradition or their titular link to the Imperial family? Either seems tenuous, but neither is important to the Japanese government of today. The prewar DNBK got its authority from the Ministry of Education, obviously an Imperial institution. Not the case now. It's not lèse majesté (unless someone puts Imperial seals on the certificates, I guess, but I don't know if even that is prosecuted in modern Japan) so anyone can claim anything in this regard. Caveat emptor.

    But at least the DNBK has some claim to legitimacy in this area, if it in fact has a claim to the heritage and tradition of the old DNBK. While I'm not Japanese, from what I gather, to most the notion that some organization outside Japan is granting traditional, honorary, Imperial era, anachronistic Japanese titles is beyond laughable. Ranks up there with ninja fantasies, I reckon.

    Maybe I'll get some guy in Beijing to name me to the Order of British Empire, or the Order of the Garter (whatever it is, it always sounded good). Makes about as much sense as non-Japanese granting titles like renshi, soke, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    With IMAF near Tokyo and DNBK in Kyoto (never the twains shall meet) they kind of carved up the market with DNBK using the old Kyoto Butokuden as its base and claiming exclusive use.
    There are certainly regional differences in membership, since the cities are far apart, but I’ve never known the DNBK to claim the Butokuden as its base or exclusive use.

    The rest sounds like a fairytale, but I don’t know who’d spread it. Certainly the Butokukai of today plays, to its advantage, with its physical and name proximities to the Butokuden, but I’ve never heard that the Butokukai claims to control the Butokuden. It's certainly not in their literature.

    The Butokuden has nothing to do with the Butokukai, but I don’t know their prewar legal relationship (still think it they were separate).

    The Butokuden is owned and operated by the city of Kyoto; any Kyoto-based group properly registered with the Kyoto City Budo Center, which houses and controls the Butokuden, is free to sign up and use it - for a fee. The DNBK and many other unassociated martial arts groups do use it; any given weekend will see several events from an array of groups. It is an impressive facility, has a fabulous atmosphere for any martial arts event. But it was built with Kyoto taxpayer money, not a DNBK endowment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    And IMAF claiming an association with the Kodokan (one IMAF fairy story states that if you get a black belt with IMAF your name gets added to a big book in the Kodokan. It doesn't.)
    …….
    I don’t know who’d ascribe such a fairytale to IMAF or repeat it. I’ve been associated with IMAF for almost 20 years and have never heard this, seen it in writing, or even heard it hinted at. In fact the complete opposite is true; anyone knowledgably involved in IMAF will tell you it and the Kodokan are completely separate.

    Almost everyone that is a full member of IMAF is by definition a member of another martial arts organization, as it is a capstone organization.

    However, certainly certain individual judoka in IMAF were and are associated with the Kodokan; founding member Mifune Kyuzo sensei was a Kodokan 10dan and essentially its chief technical director; his deshi and the first IMAF Director, Ito Kazuo sensei was highly ranked (8dan? IIRC); current IMAF Director Sato Shizuya sensei was in the International Division of the Kodokan, ranked 5dan by the age of 27, and taught judo and aikido to the Strategic Air Command program at the Kodokan in the early 1950’s (I forget his current Kodokan ranking, 7 or 8dan?).

    I know other Japan-based IMAF-ranked jujutsu and judo yudansha who are also Kodokan judo dan ranked. They practice in multiple dojos, including the Kodokan, and are legitimately ranked separately by multiple organizations through recognition of their skills and efforts, not through reciprocation.

    Regards,
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Lance --

    For the SCAP era, take a look at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm .

    Also, because it's in Japanese, I haven't read it, but it looks germane:

    Yamamoto, Reiko. "Dissolution of Dainihon Butokukai and the Democratization of Physical Education ‘Budo’--A Focus on GHQ/SCAP Policy and Japanese Reaction," cited at the National Institute of Informatics website, http://www.nii.ac.jp/sokuho/articles...960000_39.html

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    Lance,

    The posted quote of my missive of some time back is a bit confusing. It should be shown as a nested quote since the first paragraph is from someone else.

    My statement was not directly related to the DNBK issues, but rather was a response to a poster who said Karetedo and Kendo are not "traditional" Budo. I said, and still maintain, that they are. Traditional doesn't neccessarily mean old; it can also refer to the way in something is presented. If I were to start a school of tea that used an electronic Mr. Coffee machine in the temae, and the participants sat in beanbag chairs while disco music blared through speakers, that would clearly not be traitonal. But if I started a school that used traditional tea utensils -- even if of contemporary origin -- and that followed the principles and proceedures common to other, earlier, traditions, I would consider it to be "traditional."

    The same is true of Budo. Karatedo, Judo, Aikido, Kendo, et al may be gendai not koryu, but that doesn't mean they can't also be "traditional." It all depends on how the dojo operates.

    As for Karatedo, Judo, and Kendo not being competitive sports: you're entitled to your opinion; I just don't agree with it. Having participated in many karate tournaments in the past, and having watched a few Kendo tournaments and followed Olympic Judo at one time, I would definitely consider them to be competitive sports as well as traditional martial arts.

    But, as I said before, that's how I fell. I don't want or need for everyone to agree with me.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth View Post
    Lance --

    For the SCAP era, take a look at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm .

    Also, because it's in Japanese, I haven't read it, but it looks germane:

    Yamamoto, Reiko. "Dissolution of Dainihon Butokukai and the Democratization of Physical Education ‘Budo’--A Focus on GHQ/SCAP Policy and Japanese Reaction," cited at the National Institute of Informatics website, http://www.nii.ac.jp/sokuho/articles...960000_39.html
    Joe,

    Thanks for that. There must be mountains of docs left in the Nat'l Archives to delve into, but I suspect that there's very little on martial arts training. There are a couple of key SCAP reports on education policy that made their way into print, I have them, but wonder what's buried in the Archives.

    Japan's National Diet Library and the National Defense Research Library seem to have large gaps in them - much of the pertinent material may be lost forever, or sitting in the US Nat'l Archives, waiting for someone to dig it up. But there are real gems to be found here, too.

    Regarding Dr. Reiko Yamamoto, that link doesn't seem to work. However, I know her work, and have interviewed her. Eventually she expanded that and another series of articles into a slim book with a huge title - 米国対日占領政策と武道教育―大日本武徳会の興亡 (Beikoku tai Nichi Senryo Seisaku to Budo Kyoiku: Dai Nihon Butokukai no Kobo) = American Occupation Policy Toward Japan and Martial Arts Education: The Fall of the Imperial Japan Japan Martial Virtue Association.

    Her real academic interest was (intentional past tense; she is a retired sociology professor emeritus of Yokohama National University) in educational policy. She researched SCAP policy toward Japanese education, its impact, etc., and got interested in this subject because it was all entwined with school budo, the same SCAP sections, etc. Our discussion was interesting in part because I think I told her several things about the DNBK that she didn't know (and probably didn't really care about, to be honest, as her focus was strictly postwar educational policy.)

    The DNBK, and everyone else involved in school budo, was treated quite fairly and actually leniently by SCAP, in her opinion.

    Other research with SCAP docs and former SCAP members leads me to believe that although early on there was a lot of concern and interest in the issue, in part SCAP simply lost interest and moved on once they realized that the budoka organizations weren't a threat, as initially feared. In result my overall impression is that the Japanese govt itself played a big role in keeping budo out of the schools longer than it probably had to. They simply had bigger fish to fry and weren't going to challenge SCAP on something so inconsequential, and once the bureaucracy here gets pointed in a certain direction it takes forever to change course.

    BTW your work on these topics in EJMAS is great. I really enjoy it.

    Regards,
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Hello.

    Thanks for the long informative post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Gatling View Post
    His son, Sasagawa Takashi, is currently Chairman, Japan Karatedo Foundation. I had a meeting with him last week; he is a very interesting gent. (see http://www.karatedo.co.jp/index3.htm)
    Just double-checking here. Are you referring to the Japan Karatedo Federation ( Á´ÆüËܶõ¼êƻϢÌÁ ), which you included a link to, or is the foundation you are referring to another karate organization altogether?

    There are so many organizations with similar names that it can be hard to keep them straight sometimes.

    Ron Beaubien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Lance,

    The posted quote of my missive of some time back is a bit confusing. It should be shown as a nested quote since the first paragraph is from someone else.

    My statement was not directly related to the DNBK issues, but rather was a response to a poster who said Karetedo and Kendo are not "traditional" Budo. I said, and still maintain, that they are. Traditional doesn't neccessarily mean old; it can also refer to the way in something is presented. If I were to start a school of tea that used an electronic Mr. Coffee machine in the temae, and the participants sat in beanbag chairs while disco music blared through speakers, that would clearly not be traitonal. But if I started a school that used traditional tea utensils -- even if of contemporary origin -- and that followed the principles and proceedures common to other, earlier, traditions, I would consider it to be "traditional."

    The same is true of Budo. Karatedo, Judo, Aikido, Kendo, et al may be gendai not koryu, but that doesn't mean they can't also be "traditional." It all depends on how the dojo operates.

    As for Karatedo, Judo, and Kendo not being competitive sports: you're entitled to your opinion; I just don't agree with it. Having participated in many karate tournaments in the past, and having watched a few Kendo tournaments and followed Olympic Judo at one time, I would definitely consider them to be competitive sports as well as traditional martial arts.

    But, as I said before, that's how I fell. I don't want or need for everyone to agree with me.
    Sorry, actually typed that missive offline, must've slipped a code. I'll punish my malcreant computer later. I understood the context. Didn't mean to mislead.

    I am under the impression we're talking about Japanese martial arts, so I'll hazard a response.

    My point was that the prewar DNBK was originally about both gendai budo and koryu, but paradoxically it created gendai budo in order to save traditional koryu bujutsu. The new ‘DNBK’ seems more focused on gendai budo, but I don’t know that to be a fact.

    I think I understand what you're saying, but I'd refocus the discussion a bit. Just saying something is traditional doesn't make it so. Hanging traditional trappings on something may help sell it as traditional, by making it appear more ‘traditional’, but doesn't make it so. (There's a fashion here in Japan - a retail store or coffee shop opens, first day immediately hangs out a sign saying 'A Tradition Since 2007!' and waits for a hundred years for anyone to care. It is a fashion, an ad, not a tradition.)

    Presumably you're talking about a traditional Japanese tea school, and presto I'm out of my league. But in my notion, if you started a tea school as you described, it might have the trappings of tradition, the appearance of the tradition, some of the superficial appearances of tradition, but nothing near to the tradition itself. You would have something you could sell to the rubes as traditional, but not a tradition in practice. And because there are people who know the difference (I wouldn’t recognize it), even in the tea schools, don’t be surprised if someone calls your hand on it.

    And without that link to a vital, founded tradition any practice will inevitably, very quickly, go off on some oddball tangent. Without fail. It is human nature – you don’t know what you don’t know. Errors in transmission multiply significantly. In two generations you have no idea of what will happen.

    Also, you often start and end with what Edward deBono calls it the ‘Village Venus’ problem; you grow up in a small village, the prettiest girl around is the most beautiful thing you can imagine. Until you hit the Las Vegas Strip and showgirls…………. enlightenment dawns – now Betty Lou’s buckteeth don’t look so good now….. and what are those fabulous things on their chests? The real deal is fabulous, but lack of access to the good, and bad budo tends to drive out the good.

    For example, I could start wearing a kilt, and toss a caber around with my drunken buds, and call our soirée 'The Traditional Highland Games', and there may or may not be anyone to call our hand on it. Surely there're no Scottish culture police to come knocking on my door in Tokyo to tell us to knock it off. And since grandpa was a Scotch-Irish forester and knew a lot about knocking down trees, maybe I have some sort of birthright to the pretense, too. (Although I never caught him in a skirt.) And we might have quite a following of True Believers, probably until the real 'The Traditional Highland Games' came along, or we run out of beer, whichever comes first. (no corrections needed, I admit I know nothing about the Games…). But should I be surprised when someone calls me a dolt if I don’t get it right, when with some effort I could find the True Caber? Has nothing to do with whether I can toss the caber farther or not. If I’m just interested in tossing, then let’s call it the sport of caber hurling, not a part of traditional Highland Games. I probably shouldn’t pick and chose, particularly as long as there are live Scots and genuine traditional games around.

    While there’re also no Japanese cultural police coming to get offenders, the whole point of researching genuine martial arts, at least to me, is to learn that there's something in this beyond my opinion. There is a body of literature available, there is legitimate, interesting history to explore and expand, and there are actually people who know, and practice, the real traditions. So why would anyone make up Japanese traditions? Go explore the real thing. It is there. (NOTE: Not saying you don’t, just a wandering discourse around the DNBK and its impact.)

    The DNBK played arguably the most significant role in Japanese martial arts for almost 50 years, and left a tremendous vacuum when it disbanded. It played a huge role in synthesizing Japanese martial traditions that echo even today, even if most of us don’t know it.

    BTW the very terms in Japanese are misleading, because you springload the answer by the question. Budo = martial art = modern martial arts. Koryu bujutsu = ancient school martial techniques. In fact, the average Japanese isn’t knowledgeable about ‘martial arts’ per se, but in my opinion (not backed up by too much fact), if you asked the average Japanese about 'traditional martial arts' 伝統的な武道・武術, in most visions of anachronistically clothed warriors would spring to mind - hakama, kimono, yoroi – using the ancient weapons of such warriors - katana, tanto, bo, jo, yari, etc. Or perhaps someone studying karate in the tradition way - tons of basics, more basics, basics til your arms fall off, hours of kata slathered on, with the occasional kumite, and rarer shiai. No multicolored gis, no leaping about after a win, no flash, no dash, no competitions in a modern arena, no TV.

    I once had the pleasure of interpreting a karate class for Kanazawa Hirokazu sensei, 2hrs or so. Maybe has one of the largest followings of any karateka worldwide. He was awesome technically – but his class started with basics, built up a tad, went back to basics, drill, drill, punch, punch. At a break, one of the Westerners came up and asked me to explain to Kanazawa sensei that they were advanced practitioners, knew the basics, more interested in his insights into kumite / sports. I interpreted - he just looked at the questioner, said something like ‘Sure…….’. After the break, more drill, drill, punch, punch. Those were his insights into kumite for that group – these guys need more basics.

    As for whether karate is a sport, wasn't ever for me. I suck at it.

    My point is that in the Japanese practitioner’s mind (with the caveat that I am not a karateka) I understand there is no equivocation – it is a martial art with some sporting aspects. Focusing on the competitive side is unnatural, unbalanced. Definitely true for judo, which is causing lots of consternation in the judo world. (Of course there are exceptions in dojo and people, but I think what I say is true of the mainstream ryuha.)

    A Japanese martial artist would probably even not use the term 'traditional martial art', but rather gendai budo or koyru bujutsu (or some abbreviation thereof) - and they have zero problem differentiating the two.

    I practice in dojo where both are performed side by side, and a trained eye can see the difference, but they’re always segregated, and, no, the difference is not merely academic. It extends to the basic organization, the inclusion or exclusion of more dangerous techniques, differences in intervals / maai, etc. It is far from simply an academic distinction from what I see.

    (Years ago I practiced in what everyone thought to be a very 'traditional' koryu bujutsu dojo - the sensei was a superb technician, unbelievable kumite, knew scores of complex kata, hundreds of fascinating techniques – and a complete ass. His view of traditional discipline was lots of screaming and belittling students. He caught me trying to ‘steal’ techniques by simply watching the senior students practicing advanced kata next to me in an open dojo, and screamed at me for 20 minutes. Later I was told that I’d greatly amused him because that was another ‘tradition’ in old Japanese martial art tradition; steal as much of the sensei’s technique as quickly as possible, and vault ahead of your fellow students by shortcutting the curriculum. No one else was bold enough to try on him because of his tirades. But according to one of his contemporaries, he’d forgotten one of the main traditions of his own school, and what I understand, and see, to be a main underpinning of Japanese martial arts, which is to exercise a great respect for everyone, including those under you.)

    Your commented “The same is true of Budo. Karatedo, Judo, Aikido, Kendo, et al may be gendai not koryu, but that doesn't mean they can't also be "traditional." It all depends on how the dojo operates.” Sorry, don’t understand, but I don’t have a lot of experience in US dojos. Are we talking about realistic / authentic versus traditional?

    Tradition is not defined by operations; operations are defined by traditions. If they are genuine, everything is part of the traditional culture in most Japanese dojos at least from the time you enter the building. Take your shoes off, control yourself, be aware… yah yah…. Taken too far from the Japanese cultural context the whole thing goes adrift – where does the martial tradition take up from the general Japanese cultural tradition? It is very hard, probably impossible, to separate. (I’ll have to ask someone about Chinese martial arts; I have some passing familiarity with Korean arts of taekwondo and hapkido, as I practiced them in Korea they’re certainly influenced by Korean culture.)

    Operations indicates that the dojo floor be cleaned after every practice; tradition, in some Japanese dojos, dictates that I do it with my miserable little cloth by hand instead of with a mop and bucket, which would clearly be the case if efficiency mattered. Some don’t care, and think the long handled mop a great invention. So even there ‘tradition’ varies widely even in Japan.

    I was told of a hilarious ‘promotion ceremony’ in a ‘traditional’ dojo in the US that involves popping the little paper bands that hold the belt together. I’ve never heard of such in Japan, but have only been at this for 23 years. Most Japanese I try to describe it too break out in giggles.

    If I enact the operational that everyone in my judo dojo wear chartreuse gis on Tuesdays, I can call it traditional but would be laughed out of town.

    tra•di•tion (plural tra•di•tions) noun
    Definition:
    1. custom or belief: a long-established action or pattern of behavior in a community or group of people, often one that has been handed down from generation to generation.

    If you want to say you’re operating in the traditional fashion, OK, fair enough, but how would you know without checking the source on occasion? If there was no living reference for that tradition, well, then we’d all be reduced to checking books. See, if I enact ‘traditional Trojan martial arts’ I’m pretty much reduced to books, no living culture. But in Japan the martial tradition lives on, and is accessible. I’ll let them define it.

    While on a trip to Okinawa recently I met a US military guy known to me to be very interested in karate. I asked him if he’d join me in an Okinawan karate dojo since he was after all in the birthplace of karate. He responded that no, he didn’t need to go, since he had been raised in a ‘traditional Okinawan karate dojo’ in the US, and had in fact instead started his own dojo, on the base, teaching ‘traditional Okinawan karate’ to Americans. I asked him about his instructors in the US, and they’d been ex-GIs who’d practiced for a year or so while in Japan, then in the US from each other, I guess. When I picked my jaw up off the floor I patted him on the head, said I’m sure you have a great dojo, do your best! and left wondering what that was all about - hubris, ignorance, sloth, or fear of facing the real deal? When he talked about traditions, I was really puzzled, because to me it was entirely made up, artificial, while the Real Deal was right outside the gate. But he is persuasive, so probably has some following or another.

    Then I went to the dojo of an Okinawan gent who is a third generation karate instructor, a very humble gent. I sat amazed at the skill, power and beauty of what he and his students performed. Later he talked about one of his former students (for only a year and a half) now in the US who, many many years later, has promoted himself to 10dan, now well beyond his own instructor, and then stole the name of his instructor’s father’s dojo. Not wanting him to think all Americans are that way, I asked, did you correct him? The answer translates as something along the lines that sadly, apparently I did not teach him well enough, or he would never dream of such a thing, so he is not really my student. What is the point in even responding to such patent nonsense? (Although he did not say it, my impression was that of what my grandma used to say – Never argue with a fool, folks may not know the difference.)

    His opinion about the traditions of Okinawan karate matters. Mine does not. When he talked about traditions, I took notes for hours.

    So, if my US military bud had faced the issue squarely and said to me ‘Look, I teach what I was told to be Okinawan karate based on a tradition that extends through 2 generations of non-Okinawan Americans who were nice guys but who all told had no more than 2 years of decent instruction, broken up by field deployments, guard duty, wars, alarums and excursions, Lord knows what else, and untainted since by study in Japan or even contact with Okinawans, but that’s what we still choose to call it, and I’d like more study in Mecca but my time and resources are limited, I got a real job and a family to feed”, I’d say, OK, cool. Work hard! I’m happy for anybody interested in martial arts, and getting a good workout.

    But when a fellow American says ‘I teach traditional Okinawa karate because I am the real deal’ and we’re standing in Okinawa, I may laugh out loud. Maybe it’s a shorthand for the above, but I’m not buying.

    Cheers,
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Beaubien View Post
    Hello.
    Thanks for the long informative post.

    Just double-checking here. Are you referring to the Japan Karatedo Federation ( Á´ÆüËܶõ¼êƻϢÌÁ ), which you included a link to, or is the foundation you are referring to another karate organization altogether?

    There are so many organizations with similar names that it can be hard to keep them straight sometimes.

    Ron Beaubien
    You're welcome. Let me know if there are factual errors, please.

    Sloppy typing lead to that question, sorry.

    Should have said he's the Chairman of Japan Karatedo Federation, unless I've got the wrong links. His father helped establish the Foundation in bold. IANAL but I think they're the two are legally separate; the foundation organizations money, the federation organizes karate. He may head both the Federation and the Foundation for all I know. Works for guys like the Kennedys; you stick a bunch of money someplace and put your kids in charge for perpetuity, and hope the gene pool doesn't dry up completely. Guaranteed income for staying above room temperature, age and condition independent.

    I don't understand the karate orgs in Tokyo at all, much less all of Japan (forget overseas....) but this is the Big Tamale, I reckon. What gives it away? Recognized by the govt of Japan from multiple angles, money (a foundation requires something like $5m hard cash in the bank, govt recognition, etc.) In fact, if I understood a gent I talked to at the Ministry of Education and IIRC, since there is a karate federation recognized by MinEd, then there cannot be another. May be wrong about that, and no way to check quickly.

    There's a similar foundation behind Kodokan judo, Kendo Renmei (I'm pretty sure, but isn't that your area of expertise?), etc.

    http://www.karatedo.co.jp/jkf/jkf-eng/e_hist.htm
    History of JKF

    1964 Japan Karatedo Federation(JKF) founded
    1969 Approved as foundation by Ministry of Education
    1969 First All Japan Charted Contest held at Budokan
    1972 JKF join Japan Physical Education Association
    1979 Participate in National Sports Tournament demonstrations at Miyazaki
    1981 Karate-Do made an official part of the national Sport Tournament at Shiga
    1999 JKF had official Group of WKF

    じゃーね!

    PS - Japanese characters will paste into this site if you first cut and paste into something like Word, using Unicode text or 'unformatted text', then cut and paste again. If you just grab .HTML text from some website it will scramble, as yours did. I'm sure someone else on the Forum knows more better'n me....
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Gatling
    This is a real morass, and I venture there only with great trepidation. These are not imperial titles, but rather honorary titles used in Imperial Japan. There is a distinct difference.

    There are many organizations that claim the right to award these traditional titles (including organizations in the US without benefit of even being exposed to Japan in decades) but I understand that that only a few, including the Kendo Federation and IMAF, actually have permission from members of the Imperial family. Notably the Karatedo and Judo organizations do not grant titles.

    In prewar Japan the Ministry of Education granted the martial arts titles through the Butokukai, and blessed the titles. Does the DNBK draw on the old DNBK tradition or their titular link to the Imperial family? Either seems tenuous, but neither is important to the Japanese government of today. The prewar DNBK got its authority from the Ministry of Education, obviously an Imperial institution. Not the case now. It's not lèse majesté (unless someone puts Imperial seals on the certificates, I guess, but I don't know if even that is prosecuted in modern Japan) so anyone can claim anything in this regard. Caveat emptor.

    But at least the DNBK has some claim to legitimacy in this area, if it in fact has a claim to the heritage and tradition of the old DNBK. While I'm not Japanese, from what I gather, to most the notion that some organization outside Japan is granting traditional, honorary, Imperial era, anachronistic Japanese titles is beyond laughable. Ranks up there with ninja fantasies, I reckon.
    Wish e-budo forum had the "Reputation" function... This is such an interesting assertion that it deserves it's own thread. Specifically, in light of the fact that the All Japan Kendo Federation has implemented a policy of allowing foreign affiliated renmei to issue their own shogo titles. Everyone's invited to join me for beer* over in Sword Arts.

    b

    *BYO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Gatling View Post
    I’ve never heard that the Butokukai claims to control the Butokuden. It's certainly not in their literature.

    The Butokuden has nothing to do with the Butokukai, but I don’t know their prewar legal relationship (still think it they were separate).

    The Butokuden is owned and operated by the city of Kyoto; any Kyoto-based group properly registered with the Kyoto City Budo Center, which houses and controls the Butokuden, is free to sign up and use it - for a fee. The DNBK and many other unassociated martial arts groups do use it; any given weekend will see several events from an array of groups. It is an impressive facility, has a fabulous atmosphere for any martial arts event. But it was built with Kyoto taxpayer money, not a DNBK endowment.

    From the DNBK website:

    "HONBU, KYOTO, JAPAN

    The Butokuden, martial arts hall built in eighth century capital of Kyoto had remained emblematically the symbol of esteemed honor and highest integrity where the prominent Japanese martial practitioners aspired to be recognized by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai.....

    The authoritative board of directors of DNBK Headquarter in Kyoto is consisted of the renowned practitioners in their own domain of martial disciplines with meritorious martial arts record and legacies......

    In 2002 April, the Second World Butoku Sai and the 40th National All Japan Butoku Sai were held in Kyoto Butokuden......

    and in 2008, the Third World Butoku Sai is to be slated in Kyoto Butokuden, Japan.........."

    References to the Butokuden on a page marked "Honbu" suggest to me that DNBK regard the Butokuden as their base.

    Regards
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Gatling View Post
    I don’t know who’d ascribe such a fairytale to IMAF or repeat it. I’ve been associated with IMAF for almost 20 years and have never heard this, seen it in writing, or even heard it hinted at. In fact the complete opposite is true; anyone knowledgably involved in IMAF will tell you it and the Kodokan are completely separate.

    You've got a PM
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan View Post
    {snip}

    References to the Butokuden on a page marked "Honbu" suggest to me that DNBK regard the Butokuden as their base.

    Regards
    I disagree. I think it is worded in such a way to allow you to make that inference, but there is no such connection stated. Their wording also makes it scan like the Butokuden was built in the 8th century, and by extension that people have been aspiring to be prominent blah-blahs under the wing of the DNBK since that time, which is patently not the case and nor are they implying it. A publicist would say it's a well-written blurb, just on the tasteful side of hype.

    b

    Edit: they may imply that it is their base, but they are definitely not implying that it is their property, or even used by them exclusively.

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