Cross Training

[SAM WILSON]

Just recently in my dojo something I find familar has crept in.A couple of students have started to train with us (no problem the more the better).Here is the problem that I find annoying they have come from a taekwondo club and say they want to cross train but no matter how you try to explain AIKIDO TO THEM there response is in taekwondo we do this.Many people can cross train and leave there other arts at home.If you come to Aikido from another martial art dont turn it into a compition or an excuse to compare just train in aikido.Has anybody else had this problem.In England where i live why are the soaps using AIKIDO as part of there plot (eastenders and nieghbours) are the culprits.Please if you have never experianced AIKIDO dont alow these clips to put you off.

[twayman]

Sam,

I don’t train in Aikido so I hope you don’t mind my cross-threading (pun intended). Anyway, I have run into this also and so has my instructor. We simply tell them that your old art is what it is; this is how we do it here. If they want to train that is fine but keep the comments to your-self if they keep it up they are asked to leave and rejoin their former art. I find it very distracting to have someone question what is being taught and place doubt in other student’s minds. As we all know all our arts have different theory’s. It’s ok to see which one works best for you but, don’t go disrupting a class. Just my two cents… back to my own threads.

[MikeWilliams]

What Todd said.

Failing that, a couple of extra-meaty shihonages should sort them out!

[climbthis]

hi sam,

what mike and todd said...

we were talking about this type of stuff with one of my sempai not long ago. in a nutshell, the dialog can go like this:

while on the mat, after showing a technique and bowing in to practice, 'well, in X art, we do this'

the reply is basically 'then what are you doing here? go back to x art'

if they're not there to learn, then they shouldn't be there.

jerome cervantes

[twayman]

while on the mat, after showing a technique and bowing in to practice, 'well, in X art, we do this'

the reply is basically 'then what are you doing here? go back to x art'

if they're not there to learn, then they shouldn't be there.

jerome cervantes

Yeah, or use them as an uke, then send them on their way.

[Green_Dreads]

When my dad first started Aikido, he was always comparing it to either Shotokan Karate or to Jujutsu. I was kind of the same at first, comparing my new Aikido to my old Jujutsu, but to myself only and the first time sharing my notes with the sensei after the class. I think cross training is an excellent idea, imagine the fruits of a career training in Aikido at one stage, Qi Gong for another and then Judo? So long as you respect each art as completely independant of the last one, of course.

[jailess]

We've just been discussing a similar thread in the Shorinji Kempo forum about cross-training, and which MA you'd do if you didn't do Kempo (you'll be glad to hear quite a few would do Aikido!).

When you enter the Dojo I think you always try ad explain the new Art in terms of your own frame of reference. For these guys it's TKD, for others it might be Muay Thai, boxing, etc.

I think people do this initially to try and make sense of this new strange thing, get a handle on it, so it's natural for beginners to do this. Questioning whether a technique would work in real life is something all beginners do: I certainly did. But after a certian point you just have to shut up and train, bearing in mind that if the techniques don't work, why have people been training in them for centuries?

In no uncertain terms, tell them that from the moment they enter the Dojo they are practicing Aikidoka and expected to shut up and train. If they want to say "in TKD we do this", go to a MMA class.

[MikeWilliams]

If they want to say "in TKD we do this", go to a MMA class.

LOL! That's got to be right up there in the top-5 things NOT to say at an MMA class.

[Robert Cheshire]

When you enter the Dojo I think you always try ad explain the new Art in terms of your own frame of reference. For these guys it's TKD, for others it might be Muay Thai, boxing, etc.

I think people do this initially to try and make sense of this new strange thing, get a handle on it, so it's natural for beginners to do this. Questioning whether a technique would work in real life is something all beginners do: I certainly did. But after a certian point you just have to shut up and train, bearing in mind that if the techniques don't work, why have people been training in them for centuries?

I think this is a good take on the situation. You can explain in several ways to them at first - that is a Korean art this is Japanese, I understand you've done that before but in here we.... I also try to explain things to them in terms or references from their past experiences (be it another MA or hobby or job, etc.).

When this fails and they still keep trying to "question" the technique then you apply the throw or joint lock. I've had times when students have questioned like this and (after I went through the above approach) set them up for a very nasty throw then stopped before the application of the throw (when they could realize what was about to happen) and asked if they really wanted
me to continue the throw or if they understood. Amazing how many people understand all of a sudden.

Sometimes, especially if they progressed a few ranks, people come in thinking they are better than what they are and don't see the holes in their training. That is one of the best things about cross training. It helps you expose and fill in some of the holes in your training.

[climbthis]

thanx robert and jame! that was damn well put!

and with the yoseikan being a composite system, it seems your explanation and approach are well suited this type of situation

explaining aikido (or any martial art for that matter ) in terms that people from other martial arts can understand would seem to be common knowledge...but sometimes we have to be reminded.

seems the first line of work would be to explain the movement in terms the new (or new to aikido) martial artist can relate to, and if they persist in the 'we do this,' 'this is better' kind of argument, we can probably safely say that they're not there as someone who wants to learn aikido but to prove their martial art is better, or show off what they know... then its probably time to, as they say in japan, hammer down the naili that sticks out

jerome cervantes

[jonesm20]

I think comparing/contrasting arts is beneficial once a significant level of experience has been gained in both. Even then it should be done privately or outside of normal instruction time.

I would explain this to the newbie and let them know they don't have enough experience in their new art to compare the two.

[Robert Cheshire]

Minoru Mochizuki of Yoseikan Budo fame strongly encouraged cross training once you became proficiant in one art. Partly because of his love for the martial arts, but, just as much because he discovered that one MA alone was not perfect for every situation (he is documented in several places saying this to O Sensei). The more tools you have in your tool box the better off you will be to tackle most situations.

I would also agree that "questioning" should be done after class. If done in class (especially a "surprise" attack as in "I could just do this") should be dealt with a swift and precise response (I'm talking about a "damn that hurts" type of moment). When they question why you did that or complain about the pain of the throw/joint lock you can tell them that is why we go slow while we are learning the technique. Continue to tell them that while going slow while learning the technique of course they could punch or attack, but, as they just found out at speed it's a different story. We also tell them if they change the attack we change the response.

[BC]

seems the first line of work would be to explain the movement in terms the new (or new to aikido) martial artist can relate to, and if they persist in the 'we do this,' 'this is better' kind of argument, we can probably safely say that they're not there as someone who wants to learn aikido but to prove their martial art is better, or show off what they know... then its probably time to, as they say in japan, hammer down the naili that sticks out

Hi J:

Yep. And I'll bet in the "old days" the response would have been along the lines of: "What? OK. Do technique...BAMM. Maybe different in aikido...Now GO!"

[climbthis]

matt and robert
i agree. questioning done after class offers more of a 'lets compare notes' type of exchange, rather than a 'challenge' on the mat. that's not to say that no one should ask questions on the mat, like questions on the technical aspect of the waza...

and also, like you said, answering the 'well what if i just did this?' question with a nicely executed response proves that aikido is indeed a martial art, and should be treated as such

"What? OK. Do technique...BAMM. Maybe different in aikido...Now GO!"

hey BC,

if i close my eyes i can totally see tohei sensei saying that and kickin Y0UR @$$ (and then mine for laughing)

HA!!!
see ya in a couple hours

jerome cervantes

[SAM WILSON]

Yes new students may come from other martial arts.But when they are practicing with your regular students and start to say in my art BLA BLA BLA it gets so annoying.So in the end I said to my TAEKWONDO student show me your attack next time you come to class.At the next class he brought along his sparring mits his footpads.Then the time came the last 10 minutes of class show me your attacks he refused I cant breakfall he said.I must admitt I cheated a bit I showed some defences against kicks with some other student that new how to kick.When new people witness some of the breakfalls suddenly they become very quite.The point I try to make is if you come to learn AIKIDO then learn AIKIDO.When you become a Dan Grade in AIKIDO after spending maney hrs on the matt come back and say in my art we do this.Spend a hole class being uke then you will feel different.