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Thread: Keysi Fighting Method

  1. #46
    The Kai Guest

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    So a form has to have so many moves (lets say 12 before a JKD"r will dicard it? How about juru's

    2.) If you are not talking about devolping skills, you are talking about what??

  2. #47
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    Quoted bt the kai,
    So a form has to have so many moves (lets say 12 before a JKD"r will dicard it?



    A "form" as it pertains to in the Tao of jeet kune-do has always meant to describe a classical kata as Mr.Bustillo stated.A classical kata in Bruce lees view has been codified,numbered,and developed under a specific structure which must and can never be broken or as bruce likes to call it "organized despair".In other words it is nothing like shadowboxing which can be changed,adapted or modfied daily if needed.

    On a side note it is important to mention that even thou a classical kata can be broken down into a single technical sequence,so that drills can be practcied with a partner,(a dose of reality practice for some traditionalist)the codified structure must usually be followed.If they claim not to have to follow it exactly the way they do in their kata,then what's the point in the first place "walla" welcome to the Jeet kune-do kingdom you have reached nirvana.

    These training methods do not apply to the striking arts only,as most of the dominant grappling arts seem to thrive on this concept.It's Probably one of the reasons why Dan inosanto(bruce JKD student) has been training in BJJ for many years now.
    Last edited by hectokan; 8th November 2005 at 23:39.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  3. #48
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    A "form" as it pertains to in the Tao of jeet kune-do has always meant to describe a classical kata as Mr.Bustillo stated.A classical kata in Bruce lees view has been codified,numbered,and developed under a specific structure which must and can never be broken or as bruce likes to call it "organized despair".In other words it is nothing like shadowboxing which can be changed,adapted or modfied daily if needed.
    I feel this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of kata, at least as practiced within my ryu. Kata are intended to develop the neuromuscular structures in certain ways, inculcate certain mentalities, build perception of distance and timing, etc. They are not always intended to be simulations of combat, but rather representative of the movements and attitude necessary for combat.

    As far as adaptation goes, it's done on a daily basis, for the rather obvious reason that each person and each situation is a bit different. The distance, timing, rhythm, and even gross movements will vary on each run-through of a given kata. Just because a given set of movements is numbered and codified doesn't make it inflexible or unadaptable.

    To clarify, I don't believe that repetitive practice of one-person forms can by itself build combat prowess. There are simply too many elements lost when a second person is omitted. However, combat effectiveness can and is built with forms incorporating regular interaction with the quirks and idiosyncracies of living, breathing opponents.
    Roberto Valenzuela
    Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu (尾張貫流槍術)
    Shinkage-ryu heiho (新陰流兵法)

    "Be intelligent, but do not be artificially intelligent." --Kung Fu Proverb

    "Culture Check: Korean Arts still determined to make indigenous martial history from 4,000 year old cave drawings. France counters by claiming Savaate developed from hunting woolly mammoths before Ice Age." --The Nth Degree

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTO
    Kata are intended to develop the neuromuscular structures in certain ways, inculcate certain mentalities, build perception of distance and timing, etc.
    Inhindsight isn't that what any and all fighting drills are suppose to be trying to acomplish?What makes the older specific kata(drill) so special that it even has special anthropology teams set up specifically for the task of trying to unravel the hidden mysteries contained in their movements?do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  5. #50
    The Kai Guest

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    So boxers don't repeat routines? There are no patterns to your weapons defense, or any self defense?

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    do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?
    I wouldn't say that, neccesarily. But I would say in the case of classical ryu, they had experience actually fighting with weapons no longer fought with today. So it is not likely that improvement is going to come from people who have no way of really testing out their 'improvements'.

    I also think that classical ryu have a very complex and different mindset from the majority of arts (at least) practiced today.

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    So boxers don't repeat routines? There are no patterns to your weapons defense, or any self defense?
    Kai,

    The big difference is the freedom to express your own self intuition at any moment during your shadowbox training.In other words in shadow boxing when a straight lead punch is thrown,(as in a jab for example)a practicioner is not forced at anyone point to follow up with a mandatory right hand because James Figg did so back in the day.


    The practicioner has the options both offensivley and defensivley to develop his very own personal cadence and intuition as to when to do anything.Can some of it become stagnated and repetitous?SURE but that is what a good trainer is for or a second eye that is able to evaluate it correctly from the outside inorder to avoid the mishaps of becomming predictable.This is also were your own rythmitic expression(sort of like your own personal DNA) needs to be honed & developed and not hampered into a set pattern.

    Yes I do agree by in large boxers do repeat the some of same punches and you must do so inorder to acquire anytype of high level skills but room for change and adaptation along with self interpretation is always allowed and encouraged as long as success is acquired with "proven" results.

    The actual punch of a boxer might follow a set pattern of delivery but nobody can tell you when to punch,when to duck,when to slide,or when to follow up,this freedom of self expression should be developed freely.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    I wouldn't say that, neccesarily. But I would say in the case of classical ryu, they had experience actually fighting with weapons no longer fought with today. So it is not likely that improvement is going to come from people who have no way of really testing out their 'improvements'.

    I also think that classical ryu have a very complex and different mindset from the majority of arts (at least) practiced today.

    Best,
    Ron
    Ron,

    I happen to agree with you here.It was developed in a different time and place under different circumstances.I am not saying that it is all neccesarily obsolete but one must come to a practical evaluation when those techniques are considered for todays world of self defense and even less so for any type of fight sport activity
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  9. #54
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    I think of Kata as GTO does: It's a way of developing muscle memory and kinaesthetic learning of the form of the punches/kicks/throwing techniques.

    Learning how to do the things Hector is talking about we do in Randori/kumite.
    JC McCrae

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    The actual punch of a boxer might follow a set pattern of delivery but nobody can tell you when to punch,when to duck,when to slide,or when to follow up,this freedom of self expression should be developed freely.
    Not so different from a classical ryu's kenshi in battle...

    Inhindsight isn't that what any and all fighting drills are suppose to be trying to acomplish?
    Yup, which is why I don't understand your animosity toward kata.

    What makes the older specific kata(drill) so special that it even has special anthropology teams set up specifically for the task of trying to unravel the hidden mysteries contained in their movements?do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?
    Not magical powers, just a long, long time and a much different philosophical outlook from that which we have today.

    As far as time, take Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami for an example. The man basically breathed, ate, and slept combat. This gave him a lot of time and a lot of experience with which to refine his martial technique, not to mention the fact that he was building and synthesizing from some already-refined combat systems (Shinto-ryu, Kage-ryu, etc.). We students of his system are inheriting approaches and methods that have been passed down and refined for centuries. That collective experience and thoughtfulness far outweighs what one man can accomplish in his life.

    As far as philosophical outlook, take a gander at, say, hsing-i chuan. The point of it is not being able to deck the average thug in two weeks. From the outset, it takes a long-term, measured approach, teaching the students perfect bodily coordination in a martial context. This makes hsing-i players able to generate tremendous explosive power, absorb strong blows to vital areas, move with seemingly impossible speed, etc. In this case, it is indeed the forms that must remain the same, or otherwise you lose the lesson of bodily harmony. Once that harmony is developed at a basic level, however, one can move into fluid and unpredictable applications.
    Roberto Valenzuela
    Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu (尾張貫流槍術)
    Shinkage-ryu heiho (新陰流兵法)

    "Be intelligent, but do not be artificially intelligent." --Kung Fu Proverb

    "Culture Check: Korean Arts still determined to make indigenous martial history from 4,000 year old cave drawings. France counters by claiming Savaate developed from hunting woolly mammoths before Ice Age." --The Nth Degree

  11. #56
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    one must come to a practical evaluation when those techniques are considered for todays world of self defense and even less so for any type of fight sport activity
    And, uh, just who is doing that?

    For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment. So I do know that it can be done.

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    And, uh, just who is doing that?

    For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment. So I do know that it can be done.

    Best,
    Ron
    I agree it can be done but in my experience it's not done by many.
    Brian Culpepper

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale

    For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment.

    Ron,

    For what it's worth,it just so happens that some of the best competitive full contact kali stick fighters are known as the dog brothers,which a lot of them come from JKD Backgrounds.Most of the top fighters in those competitive full contact kali tournaments use alot of the same principles disscussed here from the Tao of Jeet kune -do.


    Now,I don't know what tournament your friend participated in and I for one am not trying to deny any of his acomplishements but inorder to compete succesfully at any type of"high level" in any type of combative sporting event.I can guarantee you that classical kata training of any kind is not really the reason for anybodys success.
    Last edited by hectokan; 9th November 2005 at 21:44.
    Hector Gomez
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  14. #59
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    Well, I don't know you, and you don't know me, and you also don't know him...so your guarantee isn't really worth that much. No offense. This is one of the tournaments in question.

    http://www.bakbakan.com/kf2klist.htm

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    Well, I don't know you, and you don't know me, and you also don't know him...so your guarantee isn't really worth that much. No offense.

    Best,
    Ron

    well forget about you,him or me for a second and just look at the statistics and training routines of any combative elite athletes and their competitions,then comeback and answer the question.
    Last edited by hectokan; 9th November 2005 at 21:54.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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