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Thread: interesting discussion

  1. #46
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    Folks

    Heading home soon.

    I don't usuually log on much on the weekends---too much going on.

    NOT ignoring anyone.

    Feel free to rip my post/s apart in my absence

    (not that anyone requires my permission to do so)

    Get back to them no later than Monday--maybe sooner, maybe not.

    Enjoy the weekend everyone!
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  2. #47
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    Gentlemen,

    I think this is another one of those circular discussions that can go round and round, but not get anywhere.

    I use the terminology traditional to mean a school that has links to Japan and still trains in a "traditional" manner, this differs from Koryu in that they have a distinct lineage, the way it is practiced may or may not change over time.

    Both traditional and koryu jujutsu can be extremely practical, are they the most efficient way of learning practical self defense? No, but that doesn't mean that the techniques won't work.

    I currently practice Tai Chi, I find that extremely practical and complimentary to my jujutsu. However, can the majority of people who practice Tai Chi in the west use it in a practical encounter, probably not.

    Any discussion about styles and practicality are doomed to fail because it is the teacher and the student that count, a good teacher can teach effective technique, a good student can determine practical applications, the style is irrelevent.

    Yes some styles are more practical than others, but a poor student in the most practical style may not be as safe on the street as a good student of a less practical style. There are extremely good street fighters that have never studied any formal type of fighting.

    Practcial self-defense, let alone combatives or CQB, is NOT the main emphasis of many traditional or koryu styles, that doesn't mean that it wasn't at some stage in the past, and may become the focus again if we continue to deteriorate into a world of conflict.

    Buy really it's not worth arguing over. Please take care how this discussion develops.

    Regards
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Hawkins
    Gentlemen,

    I think this is another one of those circular discussions that can go round and round, but not get anywhere.

    I use the terminology traditional to mean a school that has links to Japan and still trains in a "traditional" manner, this differs from Koryu in that they have a distinct lineage, the way it is practiced may or may not change over time.

    Both traditional and koryu jujutsu can be extremely practical, are they the most efficient way of learning practical self defense? No, but that doesn't mean that the techniques won't work.

    I currently practice Tai Chi, I find that extremely practical and complimentary to my jujutsu. However, can the majority of people who practice Tai Chi in the west use it in a practical encounter, probably not.

    Any discussion about styles and practicality are doomed to fail because it is the teacher and the student that count, a good teacher can teach effective technique, a good student can determine practical applications, the style is irrelevent.

    Yes some styles are more practical than others, but a poor student in the most practical style may not be as safe on the street as a good student of a less practical style. There are extremely good street fighters that have never studied any formal type of fighting.

    Practcial self-defense, let alone combatives or CQB, is NOT the main emphasis of many traditional or koryu styles, that doesn't mean that it wasn't at some stage in the past, and may become the focus again if we continue to deteriorate into a world of conflict.

    Buy really it's not worth arguing over. Please take care how this discussion develops.

    Regards

    How can anybody want get into a heated verbal disscussion after a post like that?great post Neil,even thou I rolled my eyes just a bit after the tai-chi/self defense connection.I understand it and totally grasped your message,besides who really wants to keep going around in circles?
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  4. #49
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    You'd be suprised, on some message boards you can find some very angry taichi people...
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  5. #50
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    Not to defend that thread, or a lot of the people over at mma.tv, but there is some interesting discussion over there.

    Specifically, the judo/sambo and the wrestling subforums contain lots of active competitiors who share their knowledge, organize meets, communicate, etc. So not everyone over there is against TMAs. Also the state forums are used by lots of pro-am fighters and organizers, as well as just people who train. It helps coordinate things on a local level.

    Sure, the general "Underground" forum is full of immature and trite postings, but the place is not completely without merit.
    Keith Lee

  6. #51
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    Neil

    One of the worst beatings (in sparring) I ever took was at the hands of a Sun style Taji guy.

    Like you suggest, its not what you study---its what you can do with it.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt

    Like you suggest, its not what you study---its what you can do with it.

    I beg to differ in that some forms of study have proven to be much more effective than others under a structured fight setting,especially those that follow a specific sparring guideline.Class sparring" is similar to combat sports in that it has rules that fall under a specific fighting structure.Tell me the exact rules in which you sparr under? and I will show you a combat sport which has surpassed any particular self defense-specific karate-Martial art style or it's training methods,both in strategy and preffered techniques that are employed..




    Yes the sun-taji-guy might very well be good and yes he might very well clean house with a lot of individuals but when it comes to sparring under a specific set of guidelines like "sparring"then there are specific ways to fight under those set rules that are superior to any of the specific traditional styles of self defense,sun-taji included.

    Ofcourse it is always going to come down to the individual to make it all happen or not but the way to be most susscesful under any set of rules of fight sparring is to look at profesional combat sports that mimick the rules you sparr under.I am sure when you do that,you will find individuals who compete at the highest levels that have already surpassed or don't use any of the older traditional style's of fighting for sport sparring,both in theory and technique.

    I wonder why?
    Last edited by hectokan; 11th September 2006 at 20:08.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  8. #53
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    Hectokan

    Good point, and I agree.

    I still have to go back to people, and teaching being at least as important as methodology though.

    Best methodology in the world does you little good without people having the disciple to train, the drive to train hard, the intellegence (or train-ability if you prefer) to apply the lessons learned and or the "heart" when things get tough.

    Like I said, method is important----but the "other" 2 sides of the triangle keep getting short shift in discusion.

    EVERYONE wants to talk about "their" methods and "their" touted "superority."

    By comparision almost NOBODY wants to have the same level of discussion about their own teaching skills--how they improve them, what classes they have taken to become better teachers.
    And few wish to even mention what is required of STUDENTS to be successful.

    I don't train to exercise my skills in a "sparring" envioment or under sparring rules---I do sparr, but that is training method--not the ultimate goal of my training, thus the abilty of anyone to be "really good" at that narrow spectrum of application is less important to me.
    They may in fact be VERY IMPRESSIVE--but that is not why "I" train.

    You ask "why?"

    Your question has a simple answer--but people don't wish to talk about.

    And that answer is training specificty.

    The problem is that people don't wish to deal with the actual implications of the concept.
    Training specficity, more or less, states that you get really good if you train as closely to to the specifcations of the sport your compete in.
    A general way to put it is:

    "You can't do well what you don't train for."

    Which is smart--as far as it goes.

    The problem is that idea has serious negative implications as well as positive ones.
    Competitive events are ultimatly a "rule driven" where the rules--not overt effectiveness, drives what techniques are used and how the training is constructed.

    A good example is the arc of "boxing" history.

    At one time to a "boxer" meant that you had to be skilled at punching, kicking, grappling, trapping, holding, etc.
    You had to to be able to fight bareknuckle, with no time limitations and with "rules" that even let folks head butt.
    You even had to be good with a range of weapons--since every now and then your had to fight people with them.

    Old style English boxing was the UFC of the time.

    Then rules were set up for weight classes, then hand covering, then rounds, then rules, then more rules, then more rules still.

    "Fast foreward" a couple of 100 years and NOBODY was training for anyone to step into a "boxing" ring and get kicked down--then kicked whileyou were down.
    Nobody was training to stop a trapping/grappleing attack---not because such attacks were not effective--pretty clear that most certainly ARE, but because the "rules" forbade them and under the concept of training specificty--it would be foolish to "waste" training time for things that were "forbidden" in the ring.

    When you think about it its really kind of ironic.

    The UFC guys were basically forced to "re-invent" the wheel when they came up with the cocneot of the UFC.

    The Brits already HAD one---back in the day.

    Also ironic that Old English "boxers" would probably have been better equiped for the rigors of the current incarnation than the current crop of "boxers" would be.

    Maybe.

    Its not that "old style" techniques are somehow "ineffective" (although some of them probably are. "Some" techniques are never going to be useful to everyone or in all circumstances.)
    Its just that they are "less" effective under the rules thay drive the competions.
    Last edited by cxt; 11th September 2006 at 20:59.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  9. #54
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    I don't think anyone has stated that their method is superior,what I do hear is people (mostly TMArtist)thinking that sparring or the techniques derived from them are mostly from a narrow spectrum of applications.

    The biggest misconception I think most TMA have about sparring both in the striking arts as well as with the grappling arts is,that it's all about competition.Nothing could be further from the truth.It's almost like you have to be a cage fighter or prizefighter to reap the benifits of the most common physical dynamics that occur when two human engage in combat.


    Narrow application of techniques.........let's look at this a second.Punches,kicks,knees,Elbows,Throws,Takedowns,Locks,Chokes,and Grappling are all part of sparring and competition.Would you consider this a narrow spectrum of applications?These are all major components that make up the physical dynamics of any fight both in the streets as well as in sparring.By in large it would be very "narrow minded" not to make these common basic techniques the core of your training,unless you think that the previously mentioned techniques do not really belong in a real fight.

    Sure there are vital targets and illegal techniques that are forbidden in training or competiton such as biting,poking,pulliing hair or gouging but by in large it would be very "narrow minded" to not make the higher percentage of applicable techniques part of your core principle training.

    Here's the kicker,you don't have to actually compete at the higher levels(or spar with the intentions of knocking each other out) to reap the benifits of certain techniques that have been proven suscseful both in sparring and prizefighting.The reasons this is important is becasue one can mimmick these innovations thru various forms of drilling,a semi resistant partner,etc,that allow you to train the core fundamentals which are being improved upon with great detail.This is very important because as most TMArtist like to claim "The wheel has already been invented"yet they fail to realize that the wheel is not constructed of wood anymore.

    It's these great details in those most common techniques that make all the difference in the world.As a matter of fact most of the techniques that I described above that can be used in both sparring and competition have changed especially in the detailed department and continue to do so all the time.It's mostly the vital area techniques (illegal strikes)which change very little but then again my grandmother will probably instinctively know how to react with them real good and she does not even know them.
    Last edited by hectokan; 12th September 2006 at 18:06.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  10. #55
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    Hectokan

    I pretty much agree with you.

    I only differ in some minor areas----I think I'm, more or less, on the same page.

    And your right, "wheels are no longer made of wood."

    Steel, ceramic, cermet or plastic--its still a "wheel."

    Its the concept that is important.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  11. #56
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    Hector,
    Could I just ask you to clarify your last post?
    1) I understand you to have said that punches kicks etc have to be tested in "sparring" (I put it in inverted commas because I know a definition can be a contentious thing)
    2) I also believe that you said that sparring can be mutually beneficial and an act between training partners to improve each other NOT competively beat each other.
    Hopefully so far so good.
    What I'm not sure about is your views on how traditional martial artists view "sparing". Do you believe that all TMA are against sparring?

    Thanks
    Duncan Bowdler
    Duncan Bowdler

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan B
    Hector,
    Could I just ask you to clarify your last post?
    What I'm not sure about is your views on how traditional martial artists view "sparing". Do you believe that all TMA are against sparring.
    Duncan Bowdler

    Duncan,

    I guess I am guilty of sometimes labeling all TMA and putting them into a little box,when I know for a fact that this is not true.Just like most TMA assume that all MMA enthusiast just started training in the late 90s and like to act or constantly pull pranks like some of the fighters on the UFC reality show.

    I am here to tell you both perceptions are dead wrong.Unfortunately We sometimes tend percieve people in a certain way and catergorize them, simply because of how or what they train in,which is really silly.

    I am here to say that's wrong,Actualy I probably have a lot more in common with CXT than any of the little things that might divide us,the internet can be a weird place.I am working hard on trying to express myself in a better way without letting my past personal experiences influence my opinions on certain topics.

    I must continue to empty my cup,I hope everyone else is doing the same.
    Last edited by hectokan; 13th September 2006 at 17:42.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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