Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Tang Soo Do to Kara-te

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kaneohe, HI
    Posts
    32
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Tang Soo Do to Kara-te

    I've trained in Tang Soo Do for about nine years and when I first started I was struck by how similar it was to Shotokan. Now, I typically just think of the art as Korean Kara-te. The similarities between the two are obvious. There are some differences though.

    1. Some of the moves in our kata have been altered.
    2. We do more kicks.
    3. Many of us do not have much knowledge of the bunkai in our kata.
    4. etc...

    With that being said, one of my goals is to get back to the roots of where this art came from. Any advice?

    upnorthkyosa
    "Anything easy, usually isn't worth doing."

    Regards



    John M. Kedrowski

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    2
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    John,
    when I trained in Tang Soo Do about 15 years ago, no one spoke of Hwang Kee, the man who "created" this style. He was in fact, the teacher of my teacher yet he received little mention. I attribute this to politics, as the organization I belonged to splintered away from HK sometime in the 1970s. If you look at the info available on the net, you will see that the origins of
    TSD are murky. HK provided little or no details on his studies and teachers.
    Having since moved on to Shotokan and briefly, Uechi-Ryu, TSD is, IMO, Japanese Karate that has been heavily flavored with Korean touches i.e. kicking. The hyungs are basically the Shotokan kata; and you are correct in that no one seemed to know the bunkai. Perhaps, one had to get higher rank than I earned to get schooled in the bunkai. Best of luck.
    Bill Attardi

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    737
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Buy this: http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_morgan_0304.html

    When you get it, read this chapter: "The Evolution of Taekwondo from Japanese Karate" By Eric Madis

    Sums up the history you are looking for pretty nicely.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    haltwhistle, Northumberland, England
    Posts
    323
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    If you want to get to the roots of TSD then look at the Shotokan of the 1930s and 40s. In practical terms a lot of the modern Shorin Ryu groups retain the applications of the kata and indeed do the kata in ways suggestive of the early form of Shotokan (which in fact was Gichin Funakoshi's brand of Shorin Ryu).
    Harry Cook

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    380
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    John,

    I've noticed your post's on WS. I've been trying to find out a way to contact you, as I am no longer a registered member there. I trained TSD for many yrs, before making a transition to Goju Ryu for many reasons, like yourself. If you wish to study a Shuri Te based system, you may want to look into either Kobayashi Ryu, or Matsubayashi Ryu, those Kata would be the closest to what you are used ecspecially Kobayashi Ryu. Since you are about to journey on a similar path, as I have choosen; If you have any questions, that I may be able to help you out w/ please let me know. I am more than happy to assist anyone making a switch from TSD.

    David

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    411
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I've always noticed the similarities of "Chinto" being performed by TSD stylists..My former Shito Ryu sensei was a 4th dan in shito ryu and a 4th dan in TSD yet he never taught me TSD...but he even told me that TSD has a heavy Japanese karate flavor to it.
    Brian Culpepper

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Maine, USA
    Posts
    214
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    Moo Duk Kwan was my first style (although we were MDK TKD, not TSD). Then I trained briefly in Olympic TKD before settling on Shotokan. I also observed that MDK was far more Shotokanish than TKDish. I do believe that some of the kata in MDK/TSD represent an outgrowth of an earlier version of Shotokan than is currently practiced. For example, I recall that in Peon II (Heian Nidan) we practiced spear hand strike to the groin with a small "slap" or twist after the strike upon the turn. In Shotokan we strike to the solar plexus. Not that I was taught any bunkai in MDK, either.

    I also remember that our shuto uke and backstance were significantly different than I practice in Shotokan, butr our dojo terms were a weird mixture of Korean and Japanese.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kaneohe, HI
    Posts
    32
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    John,

    I've noticed your post's on WS. I've been trying to find out a way to contact you, as I am no longer a registered member there. I trained TSD for many yrs, before making a transition to Goju Ryu for many reasons, like yourself. If you wish to study a Shuri Te based system, you may want to look into either Kobayashi Ryu, or Matsubayashi Ryu, those Kata would be the closest to what you are used ecspecially Kobayashi Ryu. Since you are about to journey on a similar path, as I have choosen; If you have any questions, that I may be able to help you out w/ please let me know. I am more than happy to assist anyone making a switch from TSD.

    David
    Thanks David

    I wish that I could find a shuri te based system up here. Either one of those that you suggested would be great. We have Uechi Ryu up here, but that is really different from what I'm doing. The twin ports is really isolated in a way...we've got lots of McDojo, but few schools of substance. My overall goal isn't really to switch styles though. I want to make Tang Soo Do more complete. This is one of the reasons I took up jujutsu.

    I know how to perform the forms that we do well and I've built a good skill set over the years, however, I am seeking to know them better. Geography makes this difficult...so it will take time.
    "Anything easy, usually isn't worth doing."

    Regards



    John M. Kedrowski

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    411
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff
    Moo Duk Kwan was my first style (although we were MDK TKD, not TSD). Then I trained briefly in Olympic TKD before settling on Shotokan. I also observed that MDK was far more Shotokanish than TKDish. I do believe that some of the kata in MDK/TSD represent an outgrowth of an earlier version of Shotokan than is currently practiced. For example, I recall that in Peon II (Heian Nidan) we practiced spear hand strike to the groin with a small "slap" or twist after the strike upon the turn. In Shotokan we strike to the solar plexus. Not that I was taught any bunkai in MDK, either.

    I also remember that our shuto uke and backstance were significantly different than I practice in Shotokan, butr our dojo terms were a weird mixture of Korean and Japanese.
    I think you mean Pinan, not Peon Anyhoo, I do Pinan Nidan with the spear hand strike to the groin and with the twist upon the turn like you're describing. I do Shito Ryu, though, not shotokan. I've trained with three different shito ryu instructors and have had to do pinan or heian depending on what association they were with(and also kosokun or kanku, etc.).
    I honestly prefer doing the Pinan over the Heian but when I was younger I remember that in some tournaments I had to do Heian instead of Pinan..anyhoo, back to topic(sorry for the rambling)...
    I have always been taught some bunkai in my kata but not what I felt was a deep understanding of it so I have gone to seminars and watched videos to try and see more bunkai in a kata. I'm now getting to the point of not knowing what bunkai is right and just one person's interpetation of what the kata is.
    Brian Culpepper

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Houston Tx
    Posts
    241
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    John,

    I've noticed your post's on WS. I've been trying to find out a way to contact you, as I am no longer a registered member there. I trained TSD for many yrs, before making a transition to Goju Ryu for many reasons, like yourself. If you wish to study a Shuri Te based system, you may want to look into either Kobayashi Ryu, or Matsubayashi Ryu, those Kata would be the closest to what you are used ecspecially Kobayashi Ryu. Since you are about to journey on a similar path, as I have choosen; If you have any questions, that I may be able to help you out w/ please let me know. I am more than happy to assist anyone making a switch from TSD.

    David
    Just wanted to mention there is a differance between the Shuri-te, and Naha te styles.
    I studied Shorin Ryu for a couple of years then went to Goju Ryu for a couple of years under the direction of my Sensei. He had a strong root in Isshin Ryu and wanted us to study both systems to better understand that both use differant Kata. The Kihon of each is also differant. I like them both.
    The Shorin-ryu is very linear powerfull forward striking, Basai, Kusanku. The Shuri-te Kata use more speed, and have very quick, more complex movements, Empei, Chinto. The Goju very circular movements with an almost Chinese flavor, Seunchin, Supraenpei. I like TSD for its thrust kicks and hip torque.
    In TSD the Pinan Nidan form is Pyong An Yidan.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    380
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Believe me, I know the differences. That's why I suggested Kobayashi Ryu, not Goju Ryu. As he mentioned there's a Uechi Ryu Dojo there as well, & that it is very different. The same would be for Goju Ryu. If he wanted something totally different than I would say Goju, or Uechi; but I dont think that's what he's looking for.

    David

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by powerof0ne
    I think you mean Pinan, not Peon
    Brian's right.
    Peon = the student performing the kata.
    Pinan= the name of the kata



    Anyhoo, I do Pinan Nidan with the spear hand strike to the groin and with the twist upon the turn like you're describing. I do Shito Ryu, though, not shotokan. I've trained with three different shito ryu instructors and have had to do pinan or heian depending on what association they were with(and also kosokun or kanku, etc.).
    Kenzo Mabuni's group, Shito Kai, Itosu Kai and Hayashi Ha all do the nukite to the mid level (chudan). I"ve not ever seen the gedan nukite and I, too, am a shito ryu practitioner.

    What's up with this Kanku stuff though? That's just strange. Kanku was the name given to Shotokan's Kosokun by Funakoshi. Kosokun is the Japanese pronounciation of Kushanku. All of the shito groups that I've ever encountered call the kata Kosokun/kushanku.

    Rob

    I honestly prefer doing the Pinan over the Heian but when I was younger I remember that in some tournaments I had to do Heian instead of Pinan..anyhoo, back to topic(sorry for the rambling)...
    I have always been taught some bunkai in my kata but not what I felt was a deep understanding of it so I have gone to seminars and watched videos to try and see more bunkai in a kata. I'm now getting to the point of not knowing what bunkai is right and just one person's interpetation of what the kata is.
    Pinan and Heian use the same characters. Pinan is the Okinawan pronounciation and heian is the Japanese. Shito Kai's Heian's for example are the same as Seito Shito Ryu's Pinan's except for a couple of minor, minor variances, here and there.

    As for the idea of bunkai, it's been my experience that there's not a "right bunkai" per se. Rather, there's a baseline application that's shown that sort of acts as the starting point for one's personal investigation. This baseline is the one expected on gradings, but others are often accepted, especially at the higher grades. What I've experienced is that an instructor, even Kenzo Mabuni, would show "the official bunkai (tm)" and then proceed to show a bunch of alternative interpretations for a particular move. They might indicate a personal preference for a particular application, but they'd always encourage us to investigate and find an application that "works for you and fits your own sensibilities and abilities".
    YMMV, but that's been my experience.

    Rob

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Maine, USA
    Posts
    214
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    In my own defense, I was mispelling pyong, not pinan. As I said, our terminology was a confused batch Korean and Japanese terms. "Peon" was the phonetic spelling of pronouncing Pyong in our Maine dialect

    I am aware, after five years in Moo Duk Kwan and nearly a decade in Shotokan, of the differences in spelling and technique in our introductory kata. I think your observation that the Shito-ryu version of pinan nidan shares the same nukite as the MDK version supports the information provided in the ejmas article, the review of Tae Kwon Do development in Dragon Times and Harry Cook's observation.

    I am pretty confident, however, that the MDK TKD (similar to Tang Soo Do) that I practiced was essentially a Koreanized version of early Shotokan for another reason, too - we practiced all three Taikyoku kata almost identically as they are practiced in Shotokan (in those dojo that still practice them that is).

    Anyway, thanks for the spelling correction. I didn't mean to confuse the issue by spelling a Korean term "by ear".

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    380
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Rob,

    I think the problem is, is that, in Most TSD Dojang they teach no Bunkai, at all. All I ever done was Kihon, Kata, & Kumite, that was it, in TSD. That's why I fell in love w/ Goju Ryu, because of the bunkai.

    David

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    557
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Rob sed:
    As for the idea of bunkai, it's been my experience that there's not a "right bunkai" per se. Rather, there's a baseline application that's shown that sort of acts as the starting point for one's personal investigation. This baseline is the one expected on gradings, but others are often accepted, especially at the higher grades. What I've experienced is that an instructor, even Kenzo Mabuni, would show "the official bunkai (tm)" and then proceed to show a bunch of alternative interpretations for a particular move. They might indicate a personal preference for a particular application, but they'd always encourage us to investigate and find an application that "works for you and fits your own sensibilities and abilities".
    You remember, of course, that this is heresy in certain camps???
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •