Tandoku Renshu

[autrelle]

the last time i checked, the jusan kata is still a very integral part of the Iwama jo curriculum. i attended a seminar just last year where Sensei Stephanie Yap gave a very detailed instruction on the solo adn paired practice of jusan. she said (as i best remember) that the jusan paired practiced can be practiced wiht up to four partners, or, with slightly modified footwork (no turn on hasso no gaeshi), can be practiced with a single partner. it was very clear from this seminar that jusan hasn't gone anywhere and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

to the moderator: you made very interesting statements in a previous post saying that aikijo and aikiken lack certain elements to make it as readily applicable as most koryu jodo/jojutsu or kenjutsu. if i did understand that correctly to be your point, would you be so kind as to reiterate what you said? also, how much of aikijo/aikiken do you personally feel would be effective as learning koryu jo or ken? if a person such as myself (who has no one in his area doing koryu) wanted to get a better idea of teh differences between aikido bukiwaza and koryu bukiwaza, what would you suggest?

sorry to pester...

truly

[Meik Skoss]

A. Holland wrote: "to the moderator: you made very interesting statements in a previous post saying that aikijo and aikiken lack certain elements to make it as readily applicable as most koryu jodo/jojutsu or kenjutsu. if i did understand that correctly to be your point, would you be so kind as to reiterate what you said?"

My wife has asked me to respond, since I'm a bit more familiar with Ueshiba-style aikido than she (her training was in Tomiki-style and Jiyushinkai aikido).

I can't reiterate her points exactly w/ re: jo or speak for her, of course , but in talking over her post and yours, it seems clear that she was referring to the fact that most (if not all) aikido weapons technique starts and ends at a distance that is within uchima (striking distance), and that there is little/no attention directed to approaching or closing with the aite (enemy/opponent). That's to say that, in the standard paired practice in Ueshiba, Tomiki, and Shioda styles of aikido, training partners start from issoku no ma and proceed to do their thing.

That's something that is very rare in koryu bujutsu, that being a reflection of the realities of combat. Actually, it's an odd inversion of reality, because, in aikido taijutsu, a technique begins with uke approaching tori to "attack," thereby giving tori the opportunity to perform/practise a technique. This rather odd lack in weapons practice (in aikido) causes a very serious technical deficiency (from a koryu point of view). I'm speaking from my personal experience in aiki, having trained (since 1966) with many senior teachers in the Ueshiba system: Ueshiba, Shirata, Tohei, Hikitsuchi, and Saito, as well as having observed a fair amount of Tomiki technique and a bit of Shioda-style.

Holland continues, "also, how much of aikijo/aikiken do you personally feel would be effective as learning koryu jo or ken? if a person such as myself (who has no one in his area doing koryu) wanted to get a better idea of teh differences between aikido bukiwaza and koryu bukiwaza, what would you suggest?"

How much aiki weapons training would be as effective as studying a koryu? That's hard to say, because there are so many mitigating factors. Given the way (and the purpose for which) so many Ueshiba-style aiki students train, I'd have to say... NONE. Since most training in the art is really not directed toward developing any ability in combat, it's really comparing apples to oranges. Aikido's generally practiced as a form of seishin shuyo (spiritual cultivation) and shinshin tanren (physical and spiritual training). It provides its students an excellent system of self-defense, PROVIDED ONE TRAINS RATIONALLY, but is generally not all that concerned with practicality/reality.

Koryu bujutsu, on the other hand, are very different. To be sure, people train now for purposes other than their eminent utility in close combat (the aforementioned physical, mental, and spiritual training), but they retain their original nature. Done improperly, they are just as much a dance as too much modern aikido is. Done right, though, and you can march right out to the battlefield and go to work. (Indeed, that's being looked at very carefully now by the U.S. Marine Corps; a friend of mine is heading the program. They are developing a system that mimics the way koryu bujutsu were set up, with an overall doctrine [riai], training exercises [kata], and gear [dogu]. It's pretty exciting stuff.)

To get a better idea of the differences between training with weapons in aikido and the koryu, it would/will be necessary for you to visit/talk with qualified teachers of one of the koryu kenjutsu or jojutsu systems still extant, observe their practice and draw your own conclusions.

I hope this helps answer your question(s).

[autrelle]

thanks very much. your reply was very insightful for a dilletante like myself.

truly,

p.s. what you wrote about in reply to my query would make a great topic for further reading. is there a title you could recommend? if not, i'm sure that it would be a great essay topic or even book material (hint hint).

thanks again.

[chizikunbo]

First off, the name of the Japanese gentleman that I mrentioned teaching the Bo form is Shintaku. Don't know his first name.

Cheers,

its "Shiro" ( his first name) the form with almost complete certainty can be attributed to have been taught to Shiro Shintaku by Hikitsuchi Michio(sp)-hanshi (10th dan) and he probably got it from O'Sensei Ueshiba :-)
--joshua

[R Erman]

Wow, what a blast from the past.

I think this was one of the first threads I ever posted on--it was quite odd to get a topic reply notification.

Thank you for the information. So, out of curiosity, are you familiar with the bo kata Mr Shintaku taught(aiki bo go rei)? If so, can you confirm its connection to san ju ichi?