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Thread: Christianity & the martial arts (Budo) article I wrote

  1. #31
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by momoyama katsu
    the kamiza is a religious item I thought (?) I do: he would be inflicting his religion on both his art and his students. ...but it's his gojuryu nahate kirisutokyo monastery...
    Mr. Goldsbury can probably correct me but I thought the kamiza was just a shelf where a shrine could be placed. Not necessarily a religious item in and of itself, the kamiza holds the religious item. So, no, he wouldn't be inflicting his religion on anyone just by having a kamiza.

    Even if one has a portrait of Jesus, that doesn't inflict a religion upon anyone. It is an individual choice to stay or not to stay.

    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by murray
    Mr. Goldsbury can probably correct me but I thought the kamiza was just a shelf where a shrine could be placed. Not necessarily a religious item in and of itself, the kamiza holds the religious item. So, no, he wouldn't be inflicting his religion on anyone just by having a kamiza.
    kamiza is still shinto memorabilia no matter the items, or lack thereof.
    Even if one has a portrait of Jesus, that doesn't inflict a religion upon anyone. It is an individual choice to stay or not to stay.
    we have the picture of the founder on the kamiza so we can have the feeling the founder is watching us... however, most non- christians do not want to practice with the feeling that christ is watching them... I'm going to have to call religious discrimination there...
    Thanks,
    thank you
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

  3. #33
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by momoyama katsu
    kamiza is still shinto memorabilia no matter the items, or lack thereof. we have the picture of the founder on the kamiza so we can have the feeling the founder is watching us... however, most non- christians do not want to practice with the feeling that christ is watching them... I'm going to have to call religious discrimination there... thank you
    Hmmm ... I see. I use "kamiza" as an overall term. I'm most likely not using it correctly. So, rather than say kamiza, how about tokonoma? Most dojos tend to use kamiza and not tokonoma, so the usage has been somewhat generalized. So, if you have a tokonoma with a picture of O-sensei and a portrait of Jesus, you'd be fine. Besides the fact that some wouldn't want to study (which would be a personal choice) under those circumstances. And just the opposite is true. A lot of christians don't want to study because of the "non-christian" (as they call it) religious nature of the dojo environment. Either way, it's a personal, individual choice to be a part of the dojo or not.

    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by murray
    Hmmm ... I see. I use "kamiza" as an overall term. I'm most likely not using it correctly. So, rather than say kamiza, how about tokonoma?
    sure, tokonoma sounds nice and neutral.
    So, if you have a tokonoma with a picture of O-sensei and a portrait of Jesus, you'd be fine.
    no I would not; jesus is a religious figure but osensei is not. and why would jesus get a portrait but osensei just a picture?
    A lot of christians don't want to study because of the "non-christian" (as they call it) religious nature of the dojo environment.
    they choose not to practice because of the lack of religion?! that just does not seem so reasonable to me.
    Either way, it's a personal, individual choice to be a part of the dojo or not.
    yes. and I would rather not train under someone who: is reluctant to show credentials, does not teach women or children, teaches in a private (hence possibly uninsured) dojo with a portrait of jesus over the tokonoma. I have been down that road... it's not pretty...
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

  5. #35
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by momoyama katsu
    sure, tokonoma sounds nice and neutral. no I would not; jesus is a religious figure but osensei is not. and why would jesus get a portrait but osensei just a picture? they choose not to practice because of the lack of religion?! that just does not seem so reasonable to me. yes. and I would rather not train under someone who: is reluctant to show credentials, does not teach women or children, teaches in a private (hence possibly uninsured) dojo with a portrait of jesus over the tokonoma. I have been down that road... it's not pretty...
    Um, well, O-sensei gets a picture because there are actual pictures of him. Jesus has none, so he gets a portrait. Again, probably semantics, but you can't have a picture of Jesus because cameras did not exist then.

    No, christians don't train because of a lack of religion, they don't train because of the religion that's there -- shinto, buddhism, zen, etc.

    Again, it's all individual preference. Some people would train that way, some won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murray
    Um, well, O-sensei gets a picture because there are actual pictures of him. Jesus has none, so he gets a portrait. Again, probably semantics, but you can't have a picture of Jesus because cameras did not exist then.
    sounds reasonable.
    No, christians don't train because of a lack of religion, they don't train because of the religion that's there -- shinto, buddhism, zen, etc.
    the difference is... *darn you're making me think*... the shinto and buddhist memorabilia is there to remind us of the traditions from which the art came. however, unless you practice kajukenbo, jesus is not part of that tradition.
    Again, it's all individual preference. Some people would train that way, some won't.
    I'll have to refer you to the last bit in my above post, but yes.
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

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    Very interesting thoughts, questions, etc, I love it! Right now, I dont have the time to really respond, cause I gotta work tonight, & have to get some rest. But, I will reply either later, or tommorrow. Which will give me time to think, pray, & research, as well.
    Untill then, have a great day!

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwood
    What is up with a Senior Moderator posting the same message a dozen times?
    Are you refering to me? If so, perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Just to correct a statement before, there is nowhere in the bible (haven't read the New Testament though, so I talk of the original one) where it says 'Thou shall not kill' that's a usual misquote by someone who haven't read it in the Hebrew text. (Which, come to think about it, does reconcile somewhat Budo and Judaism... *Shrug* )

    In the end many Warriors of previous ages (by that I mean Knights) were ordained by the Church, and fought for the Church... So clearly if the Pope does mind some blood, then well, why not?
    However, many of the traditions followed through within the Japanese Martial Arts do stem from religious context (am I wrong?), and yes one can always find personal ways to interpet the words of god and make foreign concepts fit within their comfort zone of religion, it still falls that when one gives respect to the Kami (Marishiten is the example that I am familiar with), one breaks the code of 'Thou shalt make no false idols' (or something of the like).
    Personally, I'm not a big fan of religion (any kind), but whatever works for you, as long as you're happy, we're happy
    -Amir Barak

    "You get what you pay for, But I had no intention of living this way" - Adam Duritz

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    Are you refering to me? If so, perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

    Best wishes,
    Peter, For whatever reason, when I looked at this thread, your post was duplicated 12 times, taking the thread well into the third page. I suspect one of the other moderators may have deleted the duplicates. My post was to call someone's attention to the glitch, not trying to be disrepectful!
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwood
    Peter, For whatever reason, when I looked at this thread, your post was duplicated 12 times, taking the thread well into the third page. I suspect one of the other moderators may have deleted the duplicates. My post was to call someone's attention to the glitch, not trying to be disrepectful!
    I see. On my own computer my post appeared just once.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Kami means God. Za means seat. It can be any God, mine just so happens to be Jesus Christ. If I wanna put a portrait up there fine. It's also fine that you dont want to train w/ me. I'm sure others might feel the same way, that's fine. They can also perform a bow of thanks, or respect, rather then one of worship, if that would make them feel better. As long as in their heart, what their doing is right for them, thats all that matters. To each their own. If they still dont understand, & dont agree to any of it, maybe they should either find another Dojo, or maybe not even consider training. Also, since I will be teaching privately, I can/will select my students. If I sense that we might butt heads, I dont have to allow them to train w/ me. I have to be selective, as I will teach out of my home 1st, & then eventually open a Dojo in a small building, where I can accept students more freely. But, as it is/will be my house I have to be selective. I dont know how/why this stuff got brought up in this thread anyway, it should of been kept in the other thread. However, since it was brought up, no worries, that is what my wife does, writes policies for a national level insurance company. But, trying to get back to the original subject a bit, when I just looked at the Kanji for Kami, I noticed it is the same for the character often pronounced Jin. Can anybody tell me why? Also, if Za means seat, what does the term sei, as in Seiza mean?

    David

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    Mr Somers,

    When Chinese characters were introduced to Japan, approximations of Chinese readings were also introduced, as well as the meanings.

    Thus JIN, SHIN were Japanese adaptations of the Chinese pronunciation of the character. Kami was the Japanese word and so the same character was read in more than one way. Similarly ZA can also be read as suwaru/suwari and SEI as tadashii (meaning 'correct' or 'accurate').

    A common convention is to mark the Chinese readings with capitals and Japanese readings with lower case letters.

    Kami can of, course, be translated as God, but it also means deity.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Thank you, can you also tell me what Dana means, as in Kamidana?

    David

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    Dear Mr. Somers,

    Your article is interesting and lest I be misunderstood I do believe it is very good people try to live their life in a spiritual manner.
    My answer to your question:
    I do believe the Christian faith has a formidable thing in common with budo so in that aspect the two should go well together.

    But I mean this in a very different way.
    In my opinion, the Christian faith (or whatever religion or faith) and budo are man-made. Born out of a inbred desire to find stability and protection in an everchanging and hostile environment.
    It is in our genes, to seek protection and leadership from the strong and mighty. Be it a god, the head of a tribe, a medieval nobleman or daimyo it doesn't matter.
    On a smaller scale in the Western world the authority in a family would be structured loosely upon the Christian faith with father being the almighty, mother the go-between and the children the obedient people.
    You can fill in sensei, sempai and students.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

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