Likes Likes:  0
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 78

Thread: Bruce Lee's take on Kata

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    824
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edg176
    ...the Hawkins Chung article? At the risk of thread drift, it kind of (in my opinion...) ties into the ki/kokyu discussion that has been raging for the last few weeks.
    Just wanted to say I've read about half so far and it is eerie how much it relates to a lot of what has been said about being immoveable, etc.

    And that was 50 years ago!

    I also have something I'll post somewhere on Moshe Feldenkrais saying some very similar things about body alignment and use of power.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Sierra Foothills, CA
    Posts
    357
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Just to put it out there...

    From what I understand, Bruce's kicking skills may have been influenced
    not just from Norris but from Joon Rhee ( a personal friend of his).

    As far as nunchaku, Inosanto, Demura and Tadashi Yamashita
    were all friends of his too.

    I also read that Lee's education with Yip man was cut short because
    of one reason or another (most say it was because his grand mother
    was German) so Yip man had to stop teaching him directly. This is
    why he never taught Wing Chun because he never was authorized
    to do so. Therefore Junfan Kung-fu was created which utilized many
    Wing Chun techniques.

    These are all things I've read from various sources.
    Take it or leave it for face value.

    Peace
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    824
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    So by all accounts that I have read the fight ended in a draw,big deal the other guy had a lot more time in training from what I hear.
    Yes, but was it the total blow-out that Bruce claimed? And I've heard that it was a draw because Wong was not really trying to kill Bruce, but have a friendly match.

    So Bruce realized how much more conditioning he really needed and how imortant stamina meant in a fight.
    I think he realized that he needed more effective technique so that he wouldn't need as much stamina. I believe he actually phrased it that way, himself.

    This was years before bruce died and years before bruce reached a higher education in HIS own personalized system.
    It was nine years before he died, but I believe it was the beginning of the marathon race toward death. His higher eductation in HIS own way was what killed him. He got rid of all he thought was useless, but maybe that's the part that helps men like Yip Man get old.

    As a matter of fact this was when he first opened up his first school and decided to teach the non-chineese practicioners and the challenge came from the traditional chinese comunity that wanted him to teach only to chineese students.
    The other side is that Bruce said on TV that he could "beat any kung fu man in the San Francisco area," and Man Jack Wong sent a reply. I've also heard that many Chinese teachers were teaching to non-Chinese in Chinatown at that time. So I don't think it was racism. I think Man Jack Wong just wanted to see how good a fighter Bruce was.

    I doubt the result would have been the same a couple of years later when his evolution as a fighter was more refined.
    It was the fight with Wong that caused him to see a need for changing his approach. I don't think it would have changed very much at all if he hadn't had that fight. So two years later, he would have still been doing what he was before the fight. And Man Jack Wong would have had two years more development in his arts as well.

    BOY AM I BROWNOSING ON BRUCE BANDWAGON OR WHAT?
    Bruce will always have a place in my heart, but I think Man Jack Wong was utterly slandered by Linda Lee's book and the movie they made. They made Wong out as a bloody murdering sneak attacker. The big kick in the back scene!!! When you probably know that Bruce hurt his back messing with weights. Why attribute that injury to a sneak attack by Man Jack Wong? They never claimed that in the book. At least Linda was straight about that.

    But, yes, Bruce was magnetic to watch and he did affect the entire world of martial arts teaching and learning.

    I'll drink one to him tonight. And then one to Wong.

    Followed by one to you, one to Tim Fong, Robert Rousellot.....geez. Look at the time. I'd better get to it!!!!

    Have a great weekend guys.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    The other side is that Bruce said on TV that he could "beat any kung fu man in the San Francisco area," and Man Jack Wong sent a reply. I've also heard that many Chinese teachers were teaching to non-Chinese in Chinatown at that time. So I don't think it was racism. I think Man Jack Wong just wanted to see how good a fighter Bruce was.
    The word from people that I"ve spoken to who were students of Bruce as well as my seniors in Wong's class was that the fight wasn't about race at all. To paraphrase one of Bruce's students, it was because Bruce's self-promotion that included a good deal of badmouthing of the Traditional Chinese Community.

    Rob

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane


    The other side is that Bruce said on TV that he could "beat any kung fu man in the San Francisco area," and Man Jack Wong sent a reply. I've also heard that many Chinese teachers were teaching to non-Chinese in Chinatown at that time. So I don't think it was racism. I think Man Jack Wong just wanted to see how good a fighter Bruce was.
    It's Wong Jack Man, or in the western method: Jack Man Wong.

    Cheers.

    Rob

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    422
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X
    Just to put it out there...

    From what I understand, Bruce's kicking skills may have been influenced
    not just from Norris but from Joon Rhee ( a personal friend of his).

    As far as nunchaku, Inosanto, Demura and Tadashi Yamashita
    were all friends of his too.

    Peace

    Correction: Your right. It was Tadashi yamashita, and Demura that helped Lee with "numchucks"....I think I said Tak Kubota....all those asian names sound the same to me.

    All in all I think the movie screen was kind to Lee during his....since you get more takes than real life.
    Having seen some of his homemade work outs on 8mm was at bit of a shock. Lee was kicking a heavy bag and he sucked big time.
    His Chinese forms looked rather good though.....ironic since he is said to have not put much value on them.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, Iím humbleÖ..Iím just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    590
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    The word from people that I"ve spoken to who were students of Bruce as well as my seniors in Wong's class was that the fight wasn't about race at all. To paraphrase one of Bruce's students, it was because Bruce's self-promotion that included a good deal of badmouthing of the Traditional Chinese Community.

    Rob
    Ok let me get this straight wong went to bruce's school to set him straight about his traditional views(sorry about the racist remark towards wong apology #2)and the fight ends in a draw unless you guys set me straight here also,he was in his very early 20s very young indeed when this match occured.So now with 9 years left in the man's life he hit's his prime in his late 20s or early 30s and all the sudden the only thing people want to do is talk about this match like if it solves the dilema of the traditional v.s eclectic debate ... boy are his expectations really high but that's expected from the mega star that he is or became.
    Last edited by hectokan; 25th February 2006 at 00:31.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    422
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    It's Wong Jack Man, or in the western method: Jack Man Wong.

    Cheers.

    Rob

    Yeah but which way is "wong" and which way is "white"?
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, Iím humbleÖ..Iím just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    GROAN

    Rob


    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRousselot
    Yeah but which way is "wong" and which way is "white"?

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Ok let me get this straight wong went to bruce's school to set him straight about his traditional views(sorry about the racist remark towards wong apology
    Hector,

    I had to run out to pick up the kids and I dashed off that note in a hurry. My beef is with the Lee camp who painted a kind honorable man as a racist. I hope that in my haste, I didn't imply that you were calling Wong a racist.

    From my friend Dan Carr's website:


    "You study Kung Fu with Sifu Wong?"
    "Yes."
    (Miming a two-handed sword stroke)"Oh, he's so powerful. Very famous..."
    "Yes, he's..."
    "He's very famous for his kindness to all people."
    That pretty well sums up my experience with Wong- one who is kind to everyone.


    Anyway, the story I heard was that they went to neuteral terroritory, not to Bruce's school.

    I'm not sure that Wong was there "to set him straight". But, he was there nonetheless. Clearly others wanted to "teach Bruce a lesson". How onboard Wong was with that agenda, I don't know.


    #2)and the fight ends in a draw unless you guys set me straight here also,
    Yes, most accounts call it a draw.


    Rob

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    590
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    This wong v.s lee match reminds me of the motobu v.s the phanton boxer fight one fight out of hundreds that have transpired before or after those two is not enough to make a good point about anything if you know about fighting.why is it that people wanting to stake a claim for their point of view only care about are these two incidents,when there are a thousands other fights we can make a analogy from .c'mon guy's we can do better than this.

    oh yeah ralph machio beats up on the cobra-kai ooops wait that's not real,it shouldn't count.

    *reminder to scratch the karate kid movie off the list*
    Last edited by hectokan; 25th February 2006 at 02:34.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Back to the original question...(sorry to disrupt the flow)

    I learn so much here (not being sarcastic in any way). The majority of my background is in Matsubayashi, though a little ground fighting, grappling, and self defense were thrown in along the way, and my first instructor always said that we should see the fight in kata. I admit I always had a hard time in that, and it could be why a lot of my lower katas were not what they could be. This is my current view on kata, which will probably only serve to show my youth in training. I am sure that with more years of training under the belt, so to speak, my views will probably change, so I am very open to new views, ideas, and opinions.

    The first two kata I see as a basic method for getting used to putting waza in action and in combination with stance and movement (turning, ect). The pinans I see as a way to develop balance and to switch stances without bobbing up and down - keeping it all level, so to speak. The naihanchi katas...I am still unsure of those, really..although perhaps its a good way to develop power (or fight in a very narrow space...laugh laugh) but for those kata that follow, I can really see the fight in them. It isn't that I don't see anything useful in the lower katas in regards to fighting, because I do in some of the techniques. Will it work in real life? I don't really know because I have yet to experience a real life situation since I began my training (I keep trying to get mugged...laugh laugh again). What I have learned so far from the concept of kata is doing something over and over again until you get it right, and not to be satisfied with "good enough" or "it will do" - which I've applied to work, art, writing, learning, teaching (I home school), painting a room or building a desk from those impossible to understand Do It Yourself kits.

    Because kata should be done correctly, I also tend to see it as the discipline behind martial arts. After you do it a zillion times, you stop thinking.,..is my stance correct? Is my fist the right distance from my leg? Do I turn with the front foot or the back on this next move? What is the next move? Am I low enough? Am I high enough? You just do it, without thinking. It teaches you to react naturally..so perhaps kata in its strictest sense will not work in a street fight, but being able to react without thinking will. Its like learning to drive...at first you check your mirrors and put your hands at ten and two, but after years of driving you're steering with you knee while talking on the phone and eating a burrito - you don't think about "is this where I turn left" you just turn, because its the same way to take to work every single day.
    I've often wondered if kata is to martial arts what the koan is to zen.

    I am sure that the longer I train, more views that I hadn't thought of will open up to me. I've read a few books by Bruce Lee (two, actually, only two) so I can't really form much of an opinion on him or his training, I do recall reading that he did say forms were limiting (not an exact quote from the book, more of my overall impression from what little I've read) and I agree and disagree with that. Limiting, but, at least for me, necessary. Kata challenges me, then frustrates me when it seems like I just don't get it, and pushes me to keep doing it until I do get it. It shows me my limitations, reminds me that I am really not all that great yet, but helps me get beyond what I think I'm capable of doing.
    K Webber

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    114
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Sanda etc

    David,
    Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. Yes, sanda is Chinese kickboxing. Punch/kick and throwing, but no groundgame. I worked out with some sanda guys for a few months in China (they never sparred). I spent about 6 months training with Brent Hamby (Wong's student) at his school. I really regret that I never attended one of their Saturday sparring classes--all I ever did was hit pads and do some of the attack/defense drills. I was doing it as a side practice to my main (at the time) escrima training. Brent's an awesome teacher, and were I still living in Oakland, that's where I would train.

    Back to the lead leg sidekick. I was never able to do it before without using the two-step wind up. Or, if I did it, it was pretty weak.

    Did you see in the Hawkins Cheung article he talks about how Lee used a stamping kick, like a wing chun guy? I'm no expert, just a guy trying to figure out how things work, and here's my thought on my current practice.

    In my current practice I've been doing a lot of shikko, the sumo stamp. There's this feeling of expansion as the legs straighten. I did it before, but not specifically with that pulling/expanding/contracting feeling. The only way I can describe the feeling is that it's the feeling you get in your arms during zhan zhuang if you relax and let the arms move in rhythym with the breathing.

    It's a lot like the feeling in the xingyi stepping, and I would (deep breath..) assume the bagua mudwalking...that feeling of *someone else* pulling the leg forward while feeling tension between the two legs.

    Now, when I use a lead leg sidekick I can "just" pick up my leg and then drive off the back leg into the heavy bag (haven't tested it on a person yet). Much more power. Non-telegraphic. And it's that same stamping feeling. It's the mirror image of the wing chun scoop kick.

    It's the only way I could do the kick with power. I am guessing that Bruce was able to pull it off because of his wing chun forms training. Power is only part of it though, and he was clearly not so successful in finding the sensitive/position based way.
    Tim Fong

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    618
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Tim,

    Wong Sifu is at Ft. Mason. Also, Rick Wing (Bucky) and Some other Jing Mo seniors are in San Bruno.

    Rob

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    824
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    It's Wong Jack Man, or in the western method: Jack Man Wong.

    Cheers.

    Rob
    I spelled it wong?
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •