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Thread: Newaza

  1. #1
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    Manaka Sensei,

    First, I would like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule in order to share with us some of your wisdom and experience. It is a honor and I am truly grateful for this opportunity.

    Over the course of my training in the ninpo arts, I have heard time and time again that the principles and philosophies of fighting are the same, whether or not one is standing or on the ground. Unfortunately I have never been taught newaza that can be attributed to the arts which we study. Instead they are integrated into training from outside sources such as Judo and "modern jujitsu".

    Over the past few decades, have the techniques and priciples of newaza been taught to those who study ninpo? If they have been taught, why is it that noone seems to know them and instead look to outside sources for their training?

    What part does newaza play in the Jinenkan cirriculum? Is there much of a focus on this aspect of training? If not, then why?

    Historically, how has newaza or "grappling" on the ground been taught by the various ryuha that are a part of the Jinenkan?

    Finally, how should we as practitioners of these arts approach our training of newaza?

    Thank you for taking the time to read my questions and I apologize if my questions are unclear. I look forward to your reply.

    David Gadoury

  2. #2
    Fumio Manaka Guest

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    Newaza are an extension of Tachiwaza (standing techniques). Therefore if you learn the Tachiwaza with the intention of mastering the principles behind them you will be able to do Newaza as well. I hope this answers your question.

    Manaka Unsui

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    Manaka Sensei,

    Thank you for taking the time to contribute to our pool of knowledge, and welcome to E-budo.

    Your answer to Mr. Gadoury's many questions has raised even more questions in my mind.

    Although I agree that many martial principles are universal, I feel strongly that the transition from tachiwaza to newaza highlights some fundamental and significant differences in the application of effective technique, although the principles remain similar. For instance, taisabaki is executed quite a bit differently while rolling around on the ground, as you do not always have the benefit of your center being above your feet, with your feet in contact with the ground. Maai is controlled differently as well, for the same reasons. Kuzushi takes on a whole new meaning, as both participants are already on the ground, and the dimensional element changes. These are only a few of many examples of significant differences.

    Although the principles are similar, the application is quite different. My question is this: How will students be able to do newaza applications well by only mastering the principles of tachiwaza?

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  4. #4
    Fumio Manaka Guest

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    The human body has the same weak points and so does the mind whether a person is standing or on the ground. For a way to practice, once a standing technique has been mastered, you can try using the same technique and the same way of thinking from a position on the ground.

    Manaka Unsui

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    I feel compelled to step on Sensei's toes (for which I hope he will forgive me) by adding that Takagi Yoshin-Ryu and Shinden Fudo-Ryu have strong suwari (seated) and ne-waza. These traditions are included in all the Takamatsu-den organizations (I think). Therefore, ne-waza is an explicit part of the training, not just an abstract.

    Eric Baluja

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    Sirs,

    Thank you very much for the answers. Manaka Sensei, what you say makes perfect sense.

    Mr. Baluja,

    Thank you very much for the additional comments. I think your concrete answer regarding training methods compliments Mr. Manaka's precepts very well, and I too hope he is not offended by your compulsion to add valuable remarks to this valuable discussion (as I hope neither you nor he were offended by my same compulsion to add to another thread in this forum ).

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by Jeff Cook
    ...I hope neither you nor he were offended by my same compulsion to add to another thread in this forum ).
    Not at all. As moderator, I was just trying to make sure the "Spotlight" of this forum remained on its featured guest.

    Thanks!

    Eric Baluja

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Eric Baluja
    I feel compelled to step on Sensei's toes (for which I hope he will forgive me) by adding that Takagi Yoshin-Ryu and Shinden Fudo-Ryu have strong suwari (seated) and ne-waza. These traditions are included in all the Takamatsu-den organizations (I think). Therefore, ne-waza is an explicit part of the training, not just an abstract.

    Eric Baluja
    Eric,

    Have you seen and trained in these strong suwari and newaza yourself and/or heard this directly from Manaka Sensei himself? I think that many of us have heard that Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu contain newaza but I haven't really heard it confirmed as fact. Manaka Sensei answer referenced principles as opposed to actual waza which implies to me that there isn't any newaza per se. I would love to be corrected.
    David Gadoury

  9. #9
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    David,

    I have (rather ineptly) practiced Shinden Fudo-Ryu kata that involve some pretty harsh ne-waza.

    Eric Baluja

  10. #10
    Randy Engle Guest

    Talking Not to offend anyone!

    I have trained in taijutsu, jiu jitsu, and a little judo. A lot of the techniques are the same as the newaza. This is because most of the schools such as judo, jiujitsu and taijutsu all come from the same source.

    I just got back from Florida where I was allowed to train in judo and got to see first hand how similar taijutsu newaza is to judo grappling.

    The advice I can give most people practicing newaza:
    "Don't make a groundfight into a long, drawn out grappling match. End it quick, and make back onto your feet as quickly as possible. In this day and age, most people have friends who are willing to jump in and gang up on you. When you are standing up this can be a little easier. When you are on the ground, this can be a deadly place."

    Study other grappling arts if you like along with newaza.
    Your knowledge will be increased, and if you ever encounter someone who uses grappling, you will know how to fight them.

    I mean no offense to anyone, just decided to put in my two cents to anyone who would hear me. God Bless!

    Randy Engle

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