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Thread: Article: "Daito-ryu", by Kent Moyer (BB Magazine May 2006)

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    Default Article: "Daito-ryu", by Kent Moyer (BB Magazine May 2006)

    Hi all,

    I have just heard that there is an article in Black Belt Magazine on Kondo sensei. Has anyone heard about it or read it. BBM is not a magazine that I normally pick up so I cannot find it. My Garden State News guy is out of them, go figure

    I would appreciate any feedback, thanks.

    Jose Garrido
    Jose' delCristo Garrido
    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition
    NYC Metro Area Branch Dojo
    facebook.com/daitoryudojonj

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    It's excellent! There is also a great article on Donn Draeger, too!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Chris,

    Which month's issue is it in?
    Rick Fine
    Kim Soo Martial Arts
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Austin, Texas

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    Default article

    Chris,
    I am glad to hear that it was a good one. Who was the author of the article?

    Jose'
    Jose' delCristo Garrido
    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition
    NYC Metro Area Branch Dojo
    facebook.com/daitoryudojonj

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    Mr. Fine and Mr. Garrido

    By the time I get back to you guys, you'll probably have it, but I'll check this weekend and reply on Monday. I only have internet access at the office right now. The front cover has a Wing Chung guy in red on the front, and I think the Draeger article was by Nurse (sic?) or something like that.
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    The new May issue is the one to look for. The article on Kondo Sensei is the interview Kent Moyer did with him during the last Aiki Expo (with Scott Vogeley translating), and it includes several historical photos.

    P.S. It's "Rick", please, Mr. Covington.
    Rick Fine
    Kim Soo Martial Arts
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Austin, Texas

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    Mark Murray Guest

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    Hello all,
    I just picked up a copy. It's Black Belt for May 2006 Vol 44 No. 5. It has William Cheung on the cover in a red outfit.

    I haven't read the articles yet. Will do that tonight.

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    Finny Guest

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    Thanks for the heads up guys.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:17. Reason: Typos
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Yes, these are pretty strong statements. I also read the article yesterday evening.

    I believe that with this article Kondo K. S. actually lost some more credibility than before. I say this not out of a sterile polemic, but on these simple considerations, which are logic and documental:

    1. Saying that he is the only one to have ever received an higher grade than Shodan (first degree black belt) is so big a falsehood, and so easy to prove wrong, that I almost hope it was a misunderstading in the translation. We, for instance, have documental proof (big detailed photo) that Kato Shigemitsu Sensei received the Godan from Takeda Tokimune Soke. I'm not posting it here only because it's already in the book we're publishing this fall and I cannot, but I can tell you without problems also the exact date: the 15th of July of Showa 58 (1983). But of course I know that also many others received Nidan and especially Sandan, since it was awarded to open a branch dojo as Shibucho (head of a branch dojo).

    2. Then he says he only recognizes the Takumakai and the Kodokai, besides himself. This also is very strong and unfair, since it leaves out the Roppokai, the Hakuho-ryu, the Soke association in Tokyo, the Daitokai (but that's no big deal, since it's from the old Soke's death that he and out teachers feign complete ignorance of one another), and others which ARE legitimate as much as he claims to be.

    3. The third point is both completely false, fantastic in thought, and with deep logic problems: the box in the article called "Art of Deception". In this box he theorizes that Takeda Tokimune Sensei taught to ALL his students besides HIM techniques which were made DELIBERATELY wrong for some reason (he says because he was always ASKING questions, while the other just practiced; on this I bet than any of you with experience with Japanese teachers and martial arts know that usually it's actually the opposite: you train a lot and make few questions.).

    Not only that, the box says Takeda Tokimune introduced the practice of kenjutsu (kendo no kata and Onoha ittoryu) not because he learnt them from Takeda Sokaku and thought they ARE necessary to the learning of the entire art, but just to keep all his students besides Kondo occupied with something else! So this means that Takeda Sensei in all the interviews with Mr. Pranin, in all the YEARS of continuos enbu and practice, of WRITTEN articles about the importance of Onohaittoryu was always in an INNUENDO. I do not know your thoughts, but this is so wrong, so illogical and so easy to prove so that it sounds just for what it simply is: finding an artistical and fantastic explanation to why he himself (Kondo) never learned or practiced Onoha ittoryu, which the Soke himself stressed in every occasion! Also it's not true they are different: many principles are the same, and Ippondori is very similar to the first kodachi technique of Onoha (hitotsu gachi).
    For blind followers of Kondo, I quote here some parts of Mr. Pranin's book, which is not exactly "unbiased", to prove the extreme nonsense of these declarations by Kondo: page 48, interview with Takeda Tokimune:
    "Would it be correct to say Daitoryu is based on sword movements?"
    -YES. The first short sword technique in Onoha Ittoryu is the same as the first technique in Daito ryu.
    page 52, "Ippondori is reffered to as kogusoku in Onoha Ittoryu and a kodachi is used."
    page 75, "I teach the Onoha Ittoryu techniques only to leading members of the Dojo. [...] You are not practicing the art properly unless you practice both sword and jujutsu, that is to say, unless you practice both Daitoryu and Onoha ittoryu."
    page 150, Keisuke Sato interview: "[Takeda Sokaku] once said to me: I will teach you the Onoha ittoryu sword".
    So does this means that this fantastic deception theorized by Kondo for covering his ignorance of Onoha extends ALSO to Takeda Sokaku???

    This incredible box also implies that we (seishinkai/daitokai), Okabayashi (hakuho-ryu), Ishibashi (Soke !!!.), Mori (Takumakai, that instead in another part he recognizes!!!!) we all do an hiden mokuroku that is wrong, and deliberately so, while he is the only one to know the truth. At least, by his view, Takeda Sensei was very good to practice his deception also on the hiden mokuroku practiced by the Takumakai (which is the EXACT same, as ours!!!!!!!). Maybe also this part was said by him to justify why he is doing, in his dvd, Yonkajo in idori, when Yonkajo is made by ALL the other associations only as it is, stately 15 tachiai (standing) techniques.

    4. About Kondo S. NEVER having practiced Aikido: this also is illogical, he said so many times, he repeats it after an express question in the article, while in the beginning he says: "[Hosono] taught daito-ryu aikijujutsu, karate, AIKIDO, and judo. [...] You could train in EACH of the arts that Hosono taught, AND I DID.". Now, are our legs being pulled or it's just another "error" "misunderstanding" in the translation?

    After this article, he will lose more and more credibility, because he went really overboard with falsehoods and imagination that even Mr. Pranin himself could prove him wrong! In my opinion now he clearly shows his colors.
    Please note, before flaming the post, that I did not ever say here things blindly and based on assumptions or circles, just facts and simple logic. I strongly believe the really unbiased people is now able to pierce the veil and see what really lies behind the advertisements.

    Best regards,

    Giacomo Merello
    Giacomo Merello

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 22:18.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Dear Nathan,

    I appreciate your post and your invite to calm, and especially the fact that you considered rationally what I wrote in my usual straight-forward way but trying not to be offensive.

    These are documental issues, difficult to counter.

    I do agree with you probably it was BB Mag's error regarding the Shodan issue, but I cannot really say. Maybe some of Kondo S. students can shed light on this if they know.

    Another problem can be in the translation, not made by a professional, but by a student, as I understood.

    The box, which is the most contested, and in my opinion absurd and illogical part of the article, is written in a form that seems direct talking by Kondo S., which is quite dire.

    Takeda Sokaku *did* teach to his successor Onoha Ittoryu and he taught his students as a fundamental part of the art. He passed a great deal of his time practicing hard it and showing some in demonstrations, mainly with Shimpachi Suzuki and Arisawa Gunpachi. To say he did that only to not teach Daitoryu is quite offensive to his memory, I believe. I invite the students of Okabayashi S., for instance, to ask him if he believe what Kondo S. says about their teacher.
    Please also remember that Daitoryu was made by Sokaku a quite open koryu, and Tokimune passed his entire life developing it; teaching wrong or faulty techiques on purpose is completely absurd, because if they were not convincing, or effective, there wouldn't be any students.

    It is clear to me that the main reason for that box is to justify in front of critics that he doesn't know Onoha Ittoryu and maybe also not only that, while ALL the other students agree Onoha was very important for the Soke.

    In any case I thank you Nathan, and also other people who sends me private messages, to try and keep an open mind.

    Regards,

    Giacomo Merello
    Giacomo Merello

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    OK. I think I am understanding what folks are saying but as an outsider to DRAJJ I am still having trouble here. Its not that I am not familiar with the dynamics as we have many of the same issues in the arts in which I train and teach-- Hapkido.

    Where I am having considerable trouble is on a very simple level. I am having difficulty reconciling what I read of Kondo Senseis' views in the article with the constant representation of DRAJJ as a very tightly controlled and structured practice. Perhaps the best example is the representation of the KODOKAI which is apparently the single most conservative of the DRAJJ lineages. Does anyone have thoughts along these lines or is this simply one of those "image" or "political" questions best left alone? Thoughts? Comments?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    MarkF Guest

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    A quick comment from another outsider: Consider the source! It is BB magazine, after all. BB has long-been in the entertainment business and left budo a long, long time ago if it ever arrived there. I've read a handfull of issues since my subscription ran out in 1969. The source, as I hope everyone is reading, is Black Belt Magazine, their topic of interest is in the name of the magazine. Black belts sell, and is the name of the game.
    Accuracy is immaterial.

    Mark

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    Do we really want to re-hash all the old arguments again?

    Giacomo, I understand your position and where you are coming from. I understand that you don't agree with a lot of what Kondo Sensei says or represents. I thought we basically decided to agree to disagree on these issues. After all, they won't be resolved by us arguing over it.

    Whatever you might think about this issue, the fact of the matter is that Tokimune awarded Kondo Sensei not only the highest dan rank among his students, but also a kyoju dairi and a menkyo kaiden. He also awarded Kondo Sensei all the DR scrolls (which I have personally seen). I know your group claims this is all forgery and lies. I respectfully submit that anyone who examines the evidence will think otherwise.

    I've seen your groups demonstrations of the hiden mokuroku and I've compared it to what I have learned. I see a lot of very profound and subtle differences that I don't think are mere coincidence.

    But the point is, if we start arguing now, we will just go round and round again. This is really such a small debate in the greater scheme of things because the interested parties are so small. There is more than enough public information and access to schools and teachers for people to make an informed decision about all of this.

    How about we just go back to training?
    Just a suggestion.

    Best,
    Arman Partamian

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