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Thread: Kata movement

  1. #1
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    Default Kata movement

    I would like to start a thread on the movement quality in kata. I view this thread as being an offshoot of the kata video thread. I find that when I watch a lot of karate kata, I see a lot of imitation of the feeling of a kata, but not a lot of believable feeling in the kata.

    I think competition has certainly had an appreciable effect on the feeling of kata, making it a bit too "pristine." I understand that some feel kata is a representation and is done in some ways that are demonstrations of movements. However, it has always been my understanding that kata should reflect teki and being in the fight on a number of dimensions. I find myself being very disenchanted with championship kata. A lot of it seems very snappy, but very...dead.

    Branching off from the video thread, I would think it might be informative if people pointed to some examples of good movement in kata. This isn't a thread about whether somebody has the "real" (insert kata name here). It is a thread about quality of movement. Yes maybe there is some overlap, but I want to avoid useless argument.

    I will post some after I have a chance to watch more.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    So this is an example of some really good movement out of all those videos, imo:

    http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/010/002/001.html

    The kata is Anan, which is one that I have not learned, but it is easy to see that this man has good integration from his hand through his skeleton (I am big on that). When he does the extended strikes, you can see it all align, it isn't fast for fast sake, it all falls into a competent structure.

    He has the same sort of integration that I can see in good tai chi performance.

    There was a video posted some time ago of a man doing a goju kata, where it looked like he was sped up but you could watch the timer and the scene and realize he was not. It was suparinpei, I believe, but I don't exactly remember. His ability to land in kamae in perfect time and alignment was nothing but stunning. Does anyone know what video I am talking about. He wore a black gi top and a red belt, if I recall correctly.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Great Thread Mr. Manry, Looking forward to see many of the other interested posters post their 2 cents. I will give my comment regarding the Anan kata.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    I liked Sakumoto's Annan, too.

    Anyway, I believe you were talking about Hokama's Suparinpei.

    Rob



    Quote Originally Posted by gmanry

    There was a video posted some time ago of a man doing a goju kata, where it looked like he was sped up but you could watch the timer and the scene and realize he was not. It was suparinpei, I believe, but I don't exactly remember. His ability to land in kamae in perfect time and alignment was nothing but stunning. Does anyone know what video I am talking about. He wore a black gi top and a red belt, if I recall correctly.

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    Default That's it

    Yep, I think that is it.

    Sorry to have started this thread and then gone traveling. I am disappointed that others are not participating.

    I purposefully did it to avoid negative critique.

    Thanks Mr. Alvelais for your input.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Default good oi tsuki

    Although the movement is in some ways stiff, this gentleman's punch looks to have the quality of an I-beam in the face.

    http://www.ryobukai.net/modules.php?name=Conteudo&pid=1

    I have found some of Ryubo-kai's movements to be a little stiff for my goals in karate, but I remember a young man at the University of Idaho who was a diligent practitioner and his movement was very sharp, as are those in this video.

    The gentleman in this video seems to have almost perfect projection in his punches for a kata demonstration. It is very nice on that dimension. The rest of it, of course, looks very nice, but is not typically how I move of think about movement, just not my cup of tea.

    Thanks for finding that clip, Prince.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Mr. Manry

    I agree. I think you have seen something that I believe is the difference between "Sport Karate" and Budo. It just seems soooooooo empty!
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

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    Thumbs up correct me if i'm wrong...

    correct me if i'm wrong, but it did seem that Hokama Sensei's Suparinpei WAS a bit sped up according to the counter (like you'd get transferring from 8mm)

    regardless, that is one impressive performance!

    to the original point, i agree that much of what is out there is of inconsistent quality - anyone can put anything out there, after all.

    it's still good to see everything - let's you develop a sense of what is right and what is wrong and when you find something great (like the Hokama video), it is inspirational! (not to mention fun to watch again and again and again)


    i'm sure we all have a lot to work on - at least i do!

    have a fun and safe weekend
    ~Tony Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanry
    Although the movement is in some ways stiff, this gentleman's punch looks to have the quality of an I-beam in the face.

    http://www.ryobukai.net/modules.php?name=Conteudo&pid=1

    I have found some of Ryubo-kai's movements to be a little stiff for my goals in karate, but I remember a young man at the University of Idaho who was a diligent practitioner and his movement was very sharp, as are those in this video.

    The gentleman in this video seems to have almost perfect projection in his punches for a kata demonstration. It is very nice on that dimension. The rest of it, of course, looks very nice, but is not typically how I move of think about movement, just not my cup of tea.

    Thanks for finding that clip, Prince.
    I don't think many people alive compare to Sakumoto's kata. I have always loved the Ryuei ryu kata, Paiku is one of my favorites.
    Brian Culpepper

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    (My 2 cents worth, but take into consideration that I am still a relative beginner, 2nd brown belt)

    My understanding is that in America we are essentailly doing the fast food restaurant version of kata. We learn a kata in three or four months and take it into competition. I am told that traditional Japanese training will spend five years on one kata before moving on. I may be misinformed here, but I think you can get my point.

    Also, think about where martail arts began and developed. Think about feudal Japan. Fighting was a way of life. When martial artist trained back then they could, and I am sure did, visualize using their art in battle. They trained to live. Often times we just live to train, at best. Does this make sense? I am speculating a lot here.

    Jim Dent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rode Warrior
    (My 2 cents worth, but take into consideration that I am still a relative beginner, 2nd brown belt)

    My understanding is that in America we are essentailly doing the fast food restaurant version of kata. We learn a kata in three or four months and take it into competition. I am told that traditional Japanese training will spend five years on one kata before moving on. I may be misinformed here, but I think you can get my point.

    Also, think about where martail arts began and developed. Think about feudal Japan. Fighting was a way of life. When martial artist trained back then they could, and I am sure did, visualize using their art in battle. They trained to live. Often times we just live to train, at best. Does this make sense? I am speculating a lot here.

    Jim Dent

    Points well taken Jim ! Nagamine Sensei ( Shoshin) was qouted saying that it takes 3 years for each Kata in Matsubayashi Ryu to be mastered. I do not disagree with the thoughts of the fast food mentality of what most dojo does nowdays.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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