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Thread: Takamatsu in China

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    Default Takamatsu in China

    Hi

    Does anyone know of a good resource telling of Takamatsu's time in China as im interested in reading all about it.
    Ive found little bits and read Soke's Essence of Ninjutsu but id like to read in more depth about it and all the challenges he fought.

    Thanks very much.
    karl Burton

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    Hello, here is a link to the dojo where i train there is a little info on Takamatsu Sensei on there hope this is ok, it also mentions the time he went to China.
    http://www.bujinkanmanchester.co.uk/takamatsu.htm
    Giuseppe Storto,

    Bujinkan Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu
    Shadow Warrior Bujinkan Dojo

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    Thank you Giuseppe, but ive seen a lot of similar information and it has only piqued my fascination in the subject. Im really looking for more complete accounts if any exist.

    I feel its something we could benefit from knowing as we all aspire to take in Takamatsu's teachings. but then again i understand if Hatsumi Soke wants to keep some memories of his mentor to himself for personal reasons or due to the stories containing sensitive information which he would rather transmit verbally if at all.
    karl Burton

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    Not quite on-topic, but not completely off-topic either: Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?

    Just as an example, outside of Okinawan/Japanese karate, has anyone ever seen anything like Gyokko-ryu 'hicho no kamae' in any other koryu Japanese close-quarters fighting system? What about Koto-ryu "hoko no kamae'? Or any of the Gyokko-/Koto-ryu kamae for that matter?

    And that's just the kamae...what about the movement? Circles and lines? Generating power from the foot, knee, hip, spine?

    Makes ya wonder...
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

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    i think u could start a new thread on that one.

    Gyokko Ryu was supposed to have come from China originally anyway. And if you look back a bit, its speculated that virtually all Asian martial arts have come from India originally.

    Also, similarities can be seen between all (good) martial arts because they utillise the innate strengths and weaknesses of the human body.

    i learnt (saw) a move in lesson last week which is very similar to a wing chun move, uses rolling elbow to push opponents arm down but after that its different. similarities are bound to pop up, its the style which differs more prominently.

    anyway, back on topic!? . . .
    karl Burton

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    I just received an e-mail today advertising a new book about Takamatsu Sensei:

    "Takamatsu Toshitsugu - the last shinobi" by Wolfgang Ettig

    The link provided was:
    www.takamatsu-sensei.info

    Disclaimer: I have no connection to this book, nor do I know the author. I have not read it, nor have I purchased it yet.
    Evan London
    Dojo-cho, Jinenkan Inazuma Dojo
    Orange, CT
    www.Jinenkan-Inazuma.com

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    Posted by Eric Baluja
    Not quite on-topic, but not completely off-topic either: Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?

    Just as an example, outside of Okinawan/Japanese karate, has anyone ever seen anything like Gyokko-ryu 'hicho no kamae' in any other koryu Japanese close-quarters fighting system? What about Koto-ryu "hoko no kamae'? Or any of the Gyokko-/Koto-ryu kamae for that matter?
    OK going from memory there is a book entitled "Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop that have some photographs in that look very similar to some of the kamae in the 9 schools. I think one looks like Hoko and i'm sure there a kosei.

    Gary Arthur

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    I've actually seen Tanaka Fumon using a posture very similar to Koto-ryu's seigan no kamae. Some of you may say, "Well, he is a student of Kaminaga Shigemi, so he must be showing Koto-ryu." This was before he became a student of Kaminaga and it wasn't Koto-ryu he was showing. I think he was demonstrating Enshin Ryu.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan London
    I just received an e-mail today advertising a new book about Takamatsu Sensei:

    "Takamatsu Toshitsugu - the last shinobi" by Wolfgang Ettig

    The link provided was:
    www.takamatsu-sensei.info
    Anyone know about the book or the author?
    Tommy Nash

    "A good sword is kept in its sheath." ~Sanjuro~

    Genbukan Ninpo Bugei

    Kageshin Dojo, Baltimore, MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by taken67
    Anyone know about the book or the author?
    Ettig originally asked Hatsumi sensei if it was ok to write this book, he was told no, he went ahead anyway, maybe Don Roley could confirm this?.
    Norman Smithers

    Marche ou Creve

    Bujinkan Kouryuu Dojo

    www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com

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    Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?
    Christopher Moon

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisMoon
    Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?
    He wouldn`t really, but i couldn`t see the point of going to Sensei, asking him if it was ok to write the book, then when told no, go ahead and write it anyway!
    Norman Smithers

    Marche ou Creve

    Bujinkan Kouryuu Dojo

    www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    I've actually seen Tanaka Fumon using a posture very similar to Koto-ryu's seigan no kamae. Some of you may say, "Well, he is a student of Kaminaga Shigemi, so he must be showing Koto-ryu." This was before he became a student of Kaminaga and it wasn't Koto-ryu he was showing. I think he was demonstrating Enshin Ryu.
    Tanaka Fumon has his own issues, or so I hear.

    I guess what I'm trying to get at is the theory I've heard that several of the schools are actually Takamatsu's codification of skills he learned in China plus Japanese taijutsu. I think the theory is somewhat bolstered by the lack of similarities between e.g., Gyokko-ryu and most other koryu jujutsu -- "strange" kamae (no "shizen tai"), focus on pressure point strikes, style of movement, strategies, practically no small arms work...

    Obviously most folks on this forum have a vested interest in quashing this theory but I'm still interested in what people have to say about it, keeping an open mind.
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

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    Default I'm new here, please be gentle

    Hey all, I've been a troll here at E-Budo for a few years now and finally decided to sign up. Onegaishimasu!

    From what I remember hearing about Takamatsu-s.'s training when he was younger and his trip(s) to China and Mongolia have always interested me, but as far as I know, much of that comes from stories either passed on from Takamatsu-s. to Hatsumi-souke and continuing down the line. I'm not saying they're not true but it would be nice to come across some documented evidence as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisMoon
    Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?
    Quote Originally Posted by stormy
    He wouldn`t really, but i couldn`t see the point of going to Sensei, asking him if it was ok to write the book, then when told no, go ahead and write it anyway!
    I have a small conjecture about it. I think that when wanting to author the book, going to Hatsumi-souke would be one of the best first hand sources, not to mention that Hatsumi-s. has Takamatsu's scrolls, which would also be great sources to work from. However, while I don't think it may be a real knock to Mr. Ettig's credibility to not have permission, if something about the book seems really off, then it's an issue to bring up.

    I personally would like to check out the book and might actually end up ordering it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Baluja
    Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?
    As Mr. Burton pointed out, and according to Manaka-sensei's article on Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu history, the Gyokko Ryu's founder derived it from Chinese Kenpo*. Likewise, Koto Ryu Koppoujutsu was either created by the same man or a student of Gyokko Ryu (I cannot remember which and my notes are at home); while the movements are different, they still seem "Chinese" in nature perhaps due to this influence. I believe Shinden Fudo Ryu, both Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu, also share this sort of founding.

    But, I don't think that, as Mr. Baluja seemed to imply, that others are ignoring or quashing this. I think that the time Takamatsu-sensei spent in China perhaps enhanced a more Chinese movement, look, and feel to his Gyokko Ryu techniques (and perhaps Koto Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu can be included in this) but I think these have originally been in the densho. But, a lot of this is my own speculation looking at the facts I have before me.
    Cheers,
    Drew Sutton
    Jissen Kobudo Jinenkan

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewS
    From what I remember hearing about Takamatsu-s.'s training when he was younger and his trip(s) to China and Mongolia have always interested me, but as far as I know, much of that comes from stories either passed on from Takamatsu-s. to Hatsumi-souke and continuing down the line. I'm not saying they're not true but it would be nice to come across some documented evidence as well.
    Some of Takamatsu Sensei's stories were from his autobiographies in several newspaper articles made back in the 1950's or 60's.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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