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Thread: genbukan and bujinkan

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    Default genbukan and bujinkan

    what is the difference between genbukan and bujinkan schools?
    why should someone learning bujinkan not learn genbukan too.
    phillip wheeler

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    Quote Originally Posted by phore
    why should someone learning bujinkan not learn genbukan too.
    Probably because the heads of both organizations don't want you to.

    Laterz.
    Trent Whilden

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    It is an issue of loyalty as well.
    Jason Chambers
    Owner,
    Tatsujin Photography & Design

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    It is more like an issue of ego. It's typical human behaviour, don't worry about it.


    ps : @ Mr. Chambers : Loyalty has got nothing to do with it, and you know this. Or don't you?

    cheers, Christophe.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    It's forbidden... so that closes all discussion, unfortunately.

    Maybe this thread should be shut tight too, as this has been handled over an over and over and... before.

    Nothing good can grow out of this thread, I fear.
    Achim Steigert
    Bujinkan Te-Nage Dōjō
    Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu
    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

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    o i knew that the grandmasters fordid it i was wondering why they would
    phillip wheeler

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    Hi,
    the fact you can not find any reliable information about the exact reason is the answer to your question. It is not meant to be known to everybody, and more or less a private matter between the two heads of the respective organisations.
    There are of course rumors and some people will tell you they know the reason but you will have no way to validate those stories. To most of us they remain rumors, even if they are true und will stay rumors until one fine day you sit down with either Hatsumi sensei or Tanemura sensei and they tell you about their private life and feelings...

    Karsten
    _______________________
    karsten helmholz
    bujinkan shinden dojo buchholz/hamburg

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    Quote Originally Posted by phore
    why should someone learning bujinkan not learn genbukan too.
    Why would you want to? They're both going to be pretty similiar if not quite the same thing. I've been wondering though, is it forbidden to learn Bujinkan taijutsu while also traiing in the KJJR?
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

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    ok thank you not sure what kjjr is though
    phillip wheeler

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    Tanemura's jujutsu organisation.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kabutoki
    Hi,
    the fact you can not find any reliable information about the exact reason is the answer to your question. It is not meant to be known to everybody, and more or less a private matter between the two heads of the respective organisations.
    There are of course rumors and some people will tell you they know the reason but you will have no way to validate those stories. To most of us they remain rumors, even if they are true und will stay rumors until one fine day you sit down with either Hatsumi sensei or Tanemura sensei and they tell you about their private life and feelings...

    Karsten

    Nice post... and I have to agree. It seems however that the further down the chain you are with teachers, the further this seems to be. IMHO, what really matters is training and do lots of it. My personal firsthand experience, seems to be that a Genbukan tradition is more spiritual than Bujinkan. However, after talking with another student who actually trains with Hatsumi (humble bow to Fred - she knows who she is) that its there as well. Point is their approach may be different but it really depends on what side of the river you choose to be on (I've heard this is more truth than I may be aware). I can see where loyality lies and in a certain vein of understanding its a valid one as well... just not necessarily valid from my perspective. Pick the one that seems right to you.

    Once again my humble .00000000002 cents
    Jason LeBouef
    Sweet Water and Light Laughter

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    Quote Originally Posted by niten ninja
    I've been wondering though, is it forbidden to learn Bujinkan taijutsu while also traiing in the KJJR?
    Yes, it is still forbidden.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Let's just put it this way. If you train in one or the other, the minor details of each system just don't work with the other system.

    Structurally (and I do mean this literally) the techniques of both organizations are nearly the same. But the finer details are where there is a great deal of difference, also in the philosophy of training there is much difference.

    You'll find it's best to pick one or the other instead of trying to mix both of them. The philosophies behind the training just don't blend too well with one another.

    Find what you like and stick to it.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

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    The best thing about the three kans are this:

    They are branches of the same tree. However the flavor of each is different.
    You may not train in one and another at the same time either. Hope this helps.

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    Kabutoki Posted
    There are of course rumors and some people will tell you they know the reason but you will have no way to validate those stories. To most of us they remain rumors, even if they are true und will stay rumors until one fine day you sit down with either Hatsumi sensei or Tanemura sensei and they tell you about their private life and feelings...
    No this still will not be factual, only one side of the story. Even if you sat down with Mr Tanemura, and Dr Hatsumi, you still might not get the true facts. Only if you were there at the time, do you have any chance of knowing what really happened.

    Niten Ninja posted
    Why would you want to? They're both going to be pretty similiar if not quite the same thing.
    You would think so wouldn't you?
    But from my experience this is not so.
    Tanemura spends a lot of time in the early kyu grades cutting at students with a shinai to make sure they can move out of the way. This is something not done in Bujinkan. And here begins a funny story. Back in about 1994 I attended a black belt instruction course with Tanemura Sensei, and on that course were somne high graded 5th dan Bujinkan people. Before Mr Tanemura arrived these guys were showing off, and doing some muto dori, and to be honest it didn't look too bad. Then Mr Tanemura showed up and decided he was going to cut at everyone. So we lined up and the cut came in. Almost 100% of the Genbukan guys avoided the cut, but the Bujinkan guys got cut every time, and it kind of made the muto dori demonstration they had done before null and void.

    Now before someone points out, there he goes again slagging off the Bujinkan, it is there for a point, in that the Genbukan seem to spend a lot more time on getting the basics down, before moving on to higher level stuff.

    However having said that, another diffrence I found was the way some of the kata are performed. Koku in Bujinkan seems to be very different from that taught in the Genbukan.

    There are also of course a lot more schools especially in the KJJR, which Hatsumi does not teach, and the training is much more formal.

    I've been to Bujinkan seminars where Dr Hatsumi enters the room and everyone claps, and gets on training, whereas this would never be done in Genbukan. In Genbukan the students are in a standing position in lines when Tanemura sensei enters. The is performed a traditional Japanese bow, and a prayer, and Mr Tanemura may also do a Kuji Kiri.

    Paradoxbox posted
    Let's just put it this way. If you train in one or the other, the minor details of each system just don't work with the other system.
    Actually although I have said that they are different, I don't believe this is true. I think that if some of the Bujinkan students trained with Mr Tanemura then they might find that their technique improve significantly in the case of getting the kihon power and taisabaki, and that the Genbukan students should train with the Bujinkan to learn nagare.

    But I doubt they would do this as it might take them out of their comfort zone.

    You'll find it's best to pick one or the other instead of trying to mix both of them. The philosophies behind the training just don't blend too well with one another.
    I agree that sure you should stick with an instructor and not just flit from one dojo to the next, but personally i have not found this. Although there are differences, learning the two will not hamper your advancement. Its just a pitty you are not allowed to.

    At the end of the day, and I hope this does not denigrate into a post of which org is the best, but they are two approaches aiming for the same thing and one approach is not any better than another.

    Gary Arthur

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