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Thread: Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu jujutsu

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    Default Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu jujutsu

    Regarding the connections to Kukishin Ryu etc, it is my understanding that Kano Sensei was the Soke of several Kobudo Ryu-ha; with the Mokuroku to prove it...Kukishin Ryu being one of them. At Karrinyup we train the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Jojutsu and Naginata as Kano Sensei and Iwanaga Sensei showed it to me. Kano Sensei also had Mokuroku for Hoki Ryu Iaijutsu, Shibukawa Ryu Kenjutsu (A Yagyu-Ryu offshoot I believe) and of course the secret Takagi Ryu scrolls, which bear a striking resemblance in their execution to the traditional Yanagi-Ryu Tachi-waza and Idori-waza. There were others...
    Noah Greenstone

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    Default Koryu Yanagi Ryu or Gendai?

    Quote Originally Posted by R Erman
    I don't really have an opinion on whether Yanagi or Daito are clearly Koryu, or if they are Gendai. But I can say this: Their Kenjutsu is not Kendo. Many ancient koryu systems use the higher up postures, which kendo borrowed from them.

    I will also say this: From what I've seen, battlefield schools did have lower, deeper postures, initially.
    Just an FYI: the Koryu Yanagi-Ryu has a longer name of "Shin Getsu Muso Yanagi Ryu" and was founded by Iwanaga Gennojo Masamitsu over 500 years ago. It is still being taught today in Amagasaki Japan and is headed by Iwanaga Gensaburo, a direct descendant of the style's founder. The traditional (Koryu) Yanagi-Ryu Kenjutsu is connected to Yagyu-Ryu in stance and execution, being more 'forward' than anything else, and very low...If you train it you will see the advantages. Also important to keep in mnd that Kendo is not Koryu... Kendo is a sport and, besides the Yoroi Kumi Uchi aspect, also has little connection to the training of Koryu Kenjutsu.

    This is very different than the style being practiced by Sensei Angier's group and not connected in any way.
    Noah Greenstone

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    Default

    I have copied these two posts from other threads and merged them together to form this thread.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    "This is very different than the style being practiced by Sensei Angier's group and not connected in any way."

    Actually I have seen some video footage of Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu and they are not as different in application as you might think. Some of the sword and even the naginata applications were virtually identical. There is also a possible connection between Angier's Yanagi ryu and Yagyu ryu, and also Yoshin ryu, but this is as yet unconfirmed and is still being researched.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Default dont be fooled

    If you are referring to the videos of embu at the Budokan each year or the 'official' tapes and DVDs published by the Japanese Government, they were intentionally made to depict variations and techniques that were NOT Yanagi Ryu -- as in accordance with most 'public' displays of true Koryu.

    Also, if you ask the current or previous Soke of Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu, they would tell you that simply looking at a video -- even if it depicts the actual waza -- will not give you any usable information anyway except for a vague surface glance at one side of any technique.

    To be honest, i think Iwanaga Sensei would be quite surprised to hear that someone else has used the name of his great-great-great-Grandfather's art. I am quite sure he doesn't know of any connection to the Aikibugei (Or other styles) practiced by other groups using the Yanagi name.

    True Koryu, from what I was told during my training in Japan, is defined by an unbroken lineage to true battlefield application before the Meiji Period began...
    Noah Greenstone

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    Default Don't fool yourself

    No offence Noah, but you are kind of grasping at straws trying to make your art seem more exclusive than it probably is. All arts have similarities and, especially in Japan, many of the arts have shared histories or stem from similar origins, though they may go in different directions.

    I agree that video can only show the surface, the omote, and that’s all I was talking about. But there were similarities, just as there are to the kata demonstrated by Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu and those of Akiyama Yoshin ryu. The ura is never apparent, that’s why it’s ura.

    Please do a little more homework. There are several arts out there that have “Yanagi” in the name. Ours, (Shidare Yanagi ryu) Seibutsu Yanagi ryu, Yanagi Kage ryu, and another that goes only by Yanagi ryu. There is probably a couple more out there as well. The usage of the term Yanagi was once synonymous with Yoshin ryu, which I believe is one of the predecessors of Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu as well as many other systems. Many of the arts that stemmed from Yoshin ryu have used the term Yanagi over the years. The theme of the willow is quite common in martial arts, especially those containing a jujutsu syllabus.

    On a side note, I have NEVER claimed Shidare Yanagi ryu to be koryu. Until we can learn more about the family beyond the last 3 generations we are not sure how far back it goes.

    And tell me... how much of Shidare Yanagi ryu have you experienced to be so judgemental?... a few bits of video perhaps?
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Elias
    The usage of the term Yanagi was once synonymous with Yoshin ryu, which I believe is one of the predecessors of Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu as well as many other systems. Many of the arts that stemmed from Yoshin ryu have used the term Yanagi over the years...
    Richard,

    You are thinking of a different Yoshin-ryu. The "Yoshin-ryu" that is associated with this school is Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    I stand corrected… sort of.

    I just got off the phone with Toby Threadgill and he explained to me my confusion... and then added to it.

    When we had been watching the video of Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu he had indeed recognized kata that are contained in Shindo Yoshin ryu, which has a connection to Akiyama Yoshin ryu. But I was on the wrong side of the lineages. It appears that he has found through his research a minor connection going back from Shindo Yoshin ryu, to Yoshin Koryu, to Takenouchi ryu, the precursor to Tekagi Yoshin ryu, and thus Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu on the other side. Additionally Obata Shibuharu studied Motsuge ryu, from the Takenouchi ryu line, and taught it to his son Shigeta who may have kept the kata in his teaching of his son Yukiyoshi, which in turn got incorporated into what is now Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. Anyways, it seems that somehow, through all different systems and the changes they’ve gone through, some kata have remained and gotten passed on through different lines and into completely different systems. He noted that he even recognized kata from Tekagi Yoshin ryu that are also in the Shindo Yoshin ryu syllabus.

    He thought I should point out how researching Yoshin ryu history becomes very confusing and convoluted because of all of the different styles that used the name and how they are all interrelated, sometimes several times over. Some appear at first to be not related at all, until you go back far enough in their history and find some minor connection that isn’t necessarily direct, but was connected to another branch somewhere down the line. Hell, I got a lil confused just trying to write all this down and had to call him back just to get it right, and he had to double-check his notes.

    Researching martial arts history is so much fun.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Elias
    It appears that he has found through his research a minor connection going back from Shindo Yoshin ryu, to Yoshin Koryu, to Takenouchi ryu, the precursor to Tekagi Yoshin ryu, and thus Shingestu Muso Yanagi ryu on the other side.
    One small correction...Takagi-ryu was established before the connection to Takenouchi-ryu. The 2nd soke of Takagi-ryu, Takagi Umanosuke, is the one that studied Takenouchi-ryu.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Duly noted, thank you.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Default Hmm

    The interconnections do go back and forth quite a lot. Kano Sensei and Iwanaga Sensei both had mokuroku of Takagi Ryu.
    Noah Greenstone

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    I made an error in regards to what I said about the arts going though the Obata family (just in case anyone was making note of all this) Yukiyoshi, the late head of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, was not Obata Shigeta's son but his grandson. His son had died during WW2.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    Richard,
    You are thinking of a different Yoshin-ryu. The "Yoshin-ryu" that is associated with this school is Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu.
    Acutally Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu is connected to both Akiyama's Yoshin-ryu jujutsu and Takagi-ryu jujutsu (with Kukishin-ryu bo inside it) and Yagyu-ryu kenpo.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by djnoah
    The interconnections do go back and forth quite a lot. Kano Sensei and Iwanaga Sensei both had mokuroku of Takagi Ryu.
    Yes very correct! Iwanaga Kenichi was also student of Wakita Masaichi Yoshinori who was one of Kakuno Happeita's top students so the connection to Takagi-ryu (Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu) is threw Wakita Yoshinori.

    In the begging of the Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu video you can see the students doing the Kukishin-ryu bo kata called Shiba Moguri that is "inside" Takagi-ryu.

    Then the first jujutsu kata shown is Kasumi-dori, also done as is in Takagi-ryu and very similar to the other branches of Takagi-ryu.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Default Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu

    Youtube user BudoExport has posted several nice clips,inculding this one of a "rare" school that I only heard of from the Nihon Kobudo series.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwCP8...eature=related
    Jason Llamas

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