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Thread: My own ryu-ha

  1. #1
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    Default My own ryu-ha

    Just doing some research and was pondering this question.

    If I study a ryu and that ryu has a soke and one of his student is then given Menkyo Kaiden and I decide to study with that student/teacher. That guy goes off and creates his HA. But then he gives me Menkyo Kaiden in 50 yrs time and I think that I want to create my own HA how does it all work could some one explain please - I need clarification - Do I then create a RYU ?

    Thanks in advance.

    EG

    Shintake Ryu Jujutsu ........> Shintake Ryu Tanaka-ha Jujutsu..........>
    given that the Menkyo Kaiden guys names is Tanaka

    PS this is just a made up ryu-ha so dont get too excite.

    Andres Brenton
    Roll Roll Roll your Belt gently down the seam

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    demone

    There is nothing at all stopping you from creating your "own" ryu. Based upon whatever training and teaching you wish.

    The net is full of folks that do.

    The question is if anyone takes you seriously--and that's a lot more tricky.

    Also kinda matters what you call it.

    Many ryu are actually "owned" by specific people--might help if you think of them as holding a "copyright" or "patent" on the schools teachings and ESP the name.

    In the example you give its very possible that "owner" can actually prevent you from using the designation of "Shintake Ryu" and YOUR teacher might be able to prevent you from using "Tanaka-ha" (assuminghis name is Tanaka )

    You could end up having to call it "Demone-Ryu."

    Another problem that sometimes happens is that the "menkyo" is not a automatic licencse to teach.
    Just because someone hold the rank does not automatically mean that the "owners" consider him/her an offcial teacher.
    Many people and schools draw a distinction between who holds what rank and whom actually has permission to teach--esp in a public venue.

    So its possible that 50 years later--you find that what your doing is conflicting with the wishes of the guy that currently "owns" the ryu.

    Which put you a tough spot.

    For better or worse, right or wrong, the importance of ones lineage can't be overstated in koryu.
    Make all the claims and explainations you want--if the offcial "owners" of the ryu in question rrefuse to have anything to do with you--then your kind in a tight spot.

    Maybe its just a question of marketing--but one of the reason that people like to point out their lineage is point out the transmission of the techniques and principles of they teach.
    Hard to do when the "owners" refuse to back you up.

    Don't know if that helps or not--jusy my deeply devauled 2 cents on the matter.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    From what I've read, it seems to vary greatly depending on the ryu. With Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, for example, I get the distinct impression that they want to keep the entire school under the same banner. Within the past few years there have been authorized groups studying under sensei in the U.S. and Europe, but from what I've read all of these students are still expected to go back to the original source if they really want to practice the school. On the opposite extreme you have ryu that expect you to go off on your own. Mr. Amdur writes that it is a tradition in Araki Ryu to go off and start your own unique faction once you receive a teaching liscence, adapting the original teachings to the circumstances that you find yourself in when you set up shop.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the input. Dont get me wrong I dont want to start I was just trying to get a grip on the Menkyo / Soke stuff. How the DEN / RYU / HA system really works - Does any one have an idea, using my example.
    I understand there are certain RYU that have certain way of doing things but WHAT IS THE RULE. If I am given a Menkyo Kaiden of ryu which is all ready a HA what do I call it ?

    Shintake ryu Tanaka Ha Demone Ha ?
    Tanaka Den Shintake Ryu Demone Ha ?
    Shintake Tanaka Ryu ?
    Shintake Tanaka ryu Demone Ha ?

    I get so confused.

    Andres Brenton
    Its the size of the GUT that matters

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    Quote Originally Posted by demone
    WHAT IS THE RULE.
    I think the rule is:

    There is no rule.

    I think that the naming of the school was a rather subjective thing. When the head of a line felt that he should change the school because:

    a) "I've got my own innovation, therefore I'll change the name as.."
    b) "the original name used by the founder was better than this name that the 6th ske changed into.."
    c) "Jack the Imposter in the neighbour town calls his style also Shrinkage ry, but I'll show him! I'll call this one 'The One and Only Orthodox and Original Godly Inspired Shrinkage ry'.."
    d) "The gods told me to"
    e) "I'm bored.. let's do something radical"

    Once a person has fully understood the secrets of a ryha, he also has full grasp of the history, tradition (I mean, not only he knows, he IS a living part of that history and tradition) and also the implications of the ryha's name. He knows whether change the name, when to change it and what he should change it in to.

    Sometimes the ryuha were also named retrospectively: "hmm.. I feel that our third ske Sakamoto and respective skes did things a bit differently than the shihanke line guys at Edo, who better known for this style.. to tell these two styles a part let's call this the Kazuoka-ha for their geographical position".

    And then there is of course the upsidedown name of the Toda-ha Buk ry..

    So for me at least it seems that there are no rules what-so-ever, but it was (yet another) case of "case by case".
    -Mikko Vilenius

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    demone

    Got to go with Vile and DDATFUS here.

    There really is no "according Hoyle" rule.

    Various ryu do different things--and its up to the ryu in question.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Default Then that would explain so many soke

    Then according to the posts that would explain why there are so many
    soke. I am just trying to figure it all out. There is supposed to be one Soke
    which a ryu is handed down to - From one generation to the other. The rest are Menkyo Kaiden. I recently looked into a few ryu ha and the most bizarre is the Takagi Ryu Lineage and can honestly say that it is a MESS. 5 Ryu were made by one Soke or was it Menkyo given to some and then they decided to make them into a seperate ryu.

    3 possibilities..that I can see.

    1. Yagi Ikugoro made 5 seprate ryu
    2. Yagi Ikugoro didnt choose anybody and they were all Menkyo Kaiden
    3. Yagi Ikugoro gave 1 Soke and the rest menkyo - who is the soke ?

    Any thoughts ? someone help me make sense of this one.

    Andres Brenton
    20th Dan Watashi Ryu

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    I seem to remember reading somewhere on this forum about a recent incident where a soke announced that he would have more than one successor, each one becoming the soke of their own branch. I don't recall the details, and I don't know if the original poster explained his motivation.

    Bottom line, if you are soke then you are by definition the only person who fully understands what is best for the school. You are the only one who fully understands the "big picture" and has all the information to make that type of decision. If you decide that the school needs to be split like that, then you are probably right, and it would be hard for anyone not in your position to second-guess you.

    Once again, just my understanding.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    I just wonder what happened to the original scrolls - from Takagi Yoshi Ryu
    who has them According to XYZ Takamatsu must have them - then who did he pass those ORIGINAL scrolls to ? No bother to me but just curious.

    Getting Menkyo to some people must mean Soke - I dont know. So if that soke makes a new RYU that means the Soke is not 30th in a line of Soke
    he must be 2nd. Does that make sense ?

    If i split my 400 yr old ryu - I cant make 2 people 30th Soke. One has to be
    30th and the other 2nd or both 2nd generation of the new one. I cant understand how there are so many soke in Takamatsu den and Ueno den arts.

    If they called them XYZ-Ha then it is OK but when the name is the same I distrust automatically.


    Andres Brenton
    Too many cooks ruin the broth

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    Default Thanks for the input

    Thanks all for the input so far - it is helping

    Sorry im such a numbskull but I like to call a spade a spade
    otherwise I wouldnt know what to call it

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    Quote Originally Posted by demone
    There is supposed to be one Soke
    which a ryu is handed down to - From one generation to the other. The rest are Menkyo Kaiden. I recently looked into a few ryu ha and the most bizarre is the Takagi Ryu Lineage and can honestly say that it is a MESS. 5 Ryu were made by one Soke or was it Menkyo given to some and then they decided to make them into a seperate ryu.
    Mr Brenton,

    I think you might be under the wrong impression. There isn't a body of rules from ancient times which precisely guides all ryu in Japan. There isn't supposed to be just one Soke per generation of a school - if they don't do things that way. And even if that is their tradition, who says it can't be changed? If this one-soke rule were the case, then there'd be just one school in Japan.

    I understand that you're trying to figure this out, but looking for a single answer isn't going to bear fruit.

    The replies you've got so far have explained the situation quite well. There's a few scholarly articles on the internet which could also be useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by demone
    Just doing some research and was pondering this question.

    If I study a ryu and that ryu has a soke and one of his student is then given Menkyo Kaiden and I decide to study with that student/teacher. That guy goes off and creates his HA. But then he gives me Menkyo Kaiden in 50 yrs time and I think that I want to create my own HA how does it all work could some one explain please - I need clarification - Do I then create a RYU ?

    Thanks in advance.

    EG

    Shintake Ryu Jujutsu ........> Shintake Ryu Tanaka-ha Jujutsu..........>
    given that the Menkyo Kaiden guys names is Tanaka

    PS this is just a made up ryu-ha so dont get too excite.

    Andres Brenton
    Roll Roll Roll your Belt gently down the seam
    Yes it's possible. But to ensure things stay intact a connection is not only needed with the soke who allows this but with succeeding soke over the generations. It's all to easy to go off and do your own thing that might have a few subtle differences. But it will very quickly liable to turn into something that no longer resembles the original ryu in practice and concept.

    First and formost should be ones allegiance to one's Soke who originally allowed this to happen.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Default a thought

    Being for a long time an incredibly homogenous culture, Japan is full of "unwritten rules". It is, I suppose, the definition of homogeneity, that you don't always need to define things explicitly, people "just know" how things should be done. The up-side of this is that it makes people more observant: they have to be, because no-one is telling them what to do. 'Coincidently' this is how also the way traditional arts are taught: not explicitly, but by example. The down side is it means social power structures, "norms", are reinforced by the very people they work against, i.e. those lower down on the ladder.

    b

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    Quote Originally Posted by demone
    ...If i split my 400 yr old ryu - I cant make 2 people 30th Soke. One has to be 30th and the other 2nd or both 2nd generation of the new one....
    Actually, you could have two 30th Soke. Let's say the 10th Soke of "Oenzu-ryu" ( ) gave a license of full mastery to two pupils, Buraian and Kuraido, and told one to go set up shop in the east and the other to go set up shop in the west.

    You could then have an 11th Soke of Oenzu-ryu Buraian-ha, and an 11th Soke of Oenzu-ryu Kuraido-ha. The "-ha" is a faction or branch of the original "-ryu," not a seperate ryu; so the line is still considered to be unbroken.

    By the time each ha gets up to their 30th soke there might be considerable differences between the curricula of the two ha, due to their geographical and possibly ideological seperation, but they would still both be Oenzu-ryu.

    To further complicate matters, let's say the 15th Soke of Oenzu-ryu Kuraido-ha names two successors, one who stays in the east and one who goes to the north. You could then have a 16th Soke of Eastern Oenzu-ryu Kuraido-ha, and a 16th Soke of Northern Oenzu-ryu Kuraido-ha, for a total of 3 soke of Oenzu-ryu.

    Confusing, yes?

    This is just an example of one possibility. As mentioned above, there are many other possibilities. There is no "Official Standards Committee On Ryu Succession."

    HTH.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 22nd July 2006 at 09:35.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by demone
    ...If I study a ryu and that ryu has a soke and one of his student is then given Menkyo Kaiden and I decide to study with that student/teacher. That guy goes off and creates his HA. But then he gives me Menkyo Kaiden in 50 yrs time and I think that I want to create my own HA how does it all work could some one explain please - I need clarification - Do I then create a RYU ?
    Speaking of alternate possibilites, here're some others:

    You study Shintake-ryu Tanaka-ha, get menkyo kaiden, and start your own school.

    1) You create your own system, Demone-ryu, and become the founder and 1st generation headmaster. You acknowledge your training in Shintake-ryu Tanaka-ha as your foundation, but go your seperate way.

    2) You name your school Shintake-ryu Demone-ha, and maintain close ties with Shintake-ryu's current soke and any subsequent soke, but not neccesarily with Tanaka Sensei.

    3) You name your school Demone Dojo, and teach Shintake-ryu Tanaka-ha, staying under the auspices of Tanaka Sensei in his role as chief instructor for Shintake-ryu's current soke and any subsequent soke.

    4) [Create your own variation here.]

    Etc., etc., etc.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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