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Thread: Togakure-ryū

  1. #16
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    Does anyone have the missing edition?
    George Kohler

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  2. #17
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    Dear Mr. Kohler,

    Sorry for the delay in responding. It is festival time here in Japan and so I will be quite busy the next few weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    You already proved my point that the books are secondary sources, so no arguement there.
    Sorry, I'm a little confused here. Am I reading this right? I proved your point that they are secondary sources? Maybe that was just a typographical error, but that wasn't exactly my intention.

    My poorly worded post (Sorry, I didn't get a chance to edit it as I got distracted with other things...) was intending to show that Watatani Kiyoshi's books were a primary source of information regarding Togakure-ryu based on the fact that the two lived during the same time period and were even friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    As for the "Gokko" quote, can you please cite the book for me. It appears that Dr. Friday didn't cite the work correctly, since I'm not sure which year is concidered the 3rd edition.
    I would love to provide a citation and add the text from the book here, but as I mentioned before I don't actually have a copy of that version of the book myself, although I have seen it in bookstores before.

    Japanese books usually have short print runs compared to the West. Watatani Kiyoshi was also well known for publishing revisions of Bugei Ryuha Daijiten in booklet form. If he indeed only published with three editions of his book as Dean said, then it appears that at the very least the entry to "Togakure-ryu" was edited once between print runs of the third edition, if not other places as well, which would account for the different entries.

    I'm still looking for the other copy of the book. However, it is difficult as we don't have don't have the full bibliographic information from the books above, only the dates, which makes searching more difficult.

    Regards,

    Ron

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Beaubien
    My poorly worded post (Sorry, I didn't get a chance to edit it as I got distracted with other things...) was intending to show that Watatani Kiyoshi's books were a primary source of information regarding Togakure-ryu based on the fact that the two lived during the same time period and were even friends.
    I think that what George Kohler was saying was that Watatani could only be a primary source about Takamatsu himself. He would not be a primary source for the stories about the history of the Togakure ryu that Takamatsu told. Things like the "Shinsh? Nishina Maki" would be primary sources for that. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is not a primary source about the histories of the arts it tells, it merely repeats what Watatani was able to find.

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    I know that this doesn't prove the existence of Togakure-ryu prior to Takamatsu Sensei or Toda Shinryuken (and his ancestors), but I want to show that several family names in question are listed as families in Iga. The set of 8 books called Kosei Iran-ki (校正伊亂記) written by Momochi Orinosuke (百地織之助) in 1897 has a list of about 40 names. Togakure (戸隠) and Toda (戸田) are among those names.
    George Kohler

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  5. #20
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    The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

    Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.)

    Daisuke was born into Nishina family in Shinshū which was closely related to the Azumino province. There is a detailed description in the book, "Shinshū Nishina Maki" (信州仁科巻) of which I have a copy. Nishina Shinmeigu (仁科神明社), which is located in Omachi, is the family's shrine. The sacred area in Mt. Izuna which is famous for "Izuna Shugendo" and "Izuna Tsukai" has been maintained by the Nishina family. In that gentle lineage, the name of Yukihiro Nishina (仁科幸弘), father of Daisuke, is noted as a vassal of Yoshinaka Kiso.

    In the war of Yokota-kawara, the Yoshinaka troops won its early stage victory by deceiving the enemy with red flags of "Heike" and on another occasion they used "Kagyu" tactics at Kurikara pass. Those stategies might have been planned by the Nishina family. As it is clearly described in "the Genpei Seisuiki", the surprise attack stategy of Yoshinaka was a kind of guerilla tactic which utilized the topographies of the mountains skillfully. It is not just a guess that Nishina family participated in those tactics...
    George Kohler

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler View Post
    The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

    Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.)
    Thank you very much Mr Kohler. I was curious about that introduction ever since I saw that exchange between Mr Roley and yourself about it a while back.

    Would you mind explaining who Soya Shinji is? I'm very much a newcomer to these arts and I was not able to find out through searching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScholarsInk View Post
    Would you mind explaining who Soya Shinji is? I'm very much a newcomer to these arts and I was not able to find out through searching.
    Soya Shinji (宗谷真爾) was a doctor and a writer (novelist). He passed away on April 22, 1991 at the age of 65.
    George Kohler

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    Thank you.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler View Post
    The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

    Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.):

    "Daisuke was born into Nishina family in Shinshū which was closely related to the Azumino province. There is a detailed description in the book, "Shinshū Nishina Maki" (信州仁科巻) of which I have a copy. Nishina Shinmeigu (仁科神明社), which is located in Omachi, is the family's shrine. The sacred area in Mt. Izuna which is famous for "Izuna Shugendo" and "Izuna Tsukai" has been maintained by the Nishina family. In that gentle lineage, the name of Yukihiro Nishina (仁科幸弘), father of Daisuke, is noted as a vassal of Yoshinaka Kiso.

    In the war of Yokota-kawara, the Yoshinaka troops won its early stage victory by deceiving the enemy with red flags of "Heike" and on another occasion they used "Kagyu" tactics at Kurikara pass. Those stategies might have been planned by the Nishina family. As it is clearly described in "the Genpei Seisuiki", the surprise attack stategy of Yoshinaka was a kind of guerilla tactic which utilized the topographies of the mountains skillfully. It is not just a guess that Nishina family participated in those tactics... "
    However, as was also mentioned elsewhere in this forum, the Genpei Seisuiki (which is an extended version of the Heike Monogatari and copied down from the oral songs of traveling blind biwa players) has already been largely discredited as a work containing a good dose of pure fiction.

    In Warriors of Japan: As Portrayed in the War Tales, the author Dr. Paul H. Varley states that the book "focuses on how warriors are portrayed in their literature." Referring to the war tales such as the Heike Monogatari and Genpei Seisuiki, Dr. Varley then clearly explains that: "Until recently they were regarded as generally reliable records of the past" (page xi). Dr. Varley then goes on to describe these war tales as "...mixtures of truth and fancy" and describes the "...often difficult (often impossible) task of trying to distinguish between fact and fiction" (page xi).

    Although texts like the Genpei Seisuiki and Heike Monogatari can be interesting reads about the time period, it seems completely clear that they are not regarded as being historically reliable sources by reputable scholars.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

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    The main point of the quote being posted here in this thread is the Shinshū Nishina Maki (信州仁科巻), which according to Soya Shinji, lists Nishina Daisuke and his father, Nishina Yukihiro.
    George Kohler

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  11. #26
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    I don't have a translation of the BRDJT but didn't Watatani "revise" what he'd said about Takamatsu sensei making up modern ninjutsu from children's games in the 3rd edition? As was stated early in this thread, they were friends, so I can't see why he'd slander him and then correct it unless he'd seen some sort of proof.
    Kevin Geaslin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Geaslin View Post
    I don't have a translation of the BRDJT but didn't Watatani "revise" what he'd said about Takamatsu sensei making up modern ninjutsu from children's games in the 3rd edition? As was stated early in this thread, they were friends, so I can't see why he'd slander him and then correct it unless he'd seen some sort of proof.
    See post 6 for the 1963 book. This book has a slightly different name - Bugei Ryūha Jiten (missing the "Dai").

    See post 5 for the 1969 edition.

    See post 1 for the 1978 edition.
    George Kohler

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  13. #28
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    Ahh, thanks. I was wondering if the Jiten was the same publication. I wonder if any koryu researchers will ever compile a new edition - there has to have been some new stuff uncovered in the past 30 years. Do organizations like the Kobudo Shinkokai keep a public listing of all the accepted ryuha?
    Kevin Geaslin
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    Maybe those questions should be put in another thread. I'm trying to keep this thread just for references to Togakure-ryū.
    George Kohler

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    I know that this doesn't prove the existence of Togakure-ryu prior to Takamatsu Sensei or Toda Shinryuken (and his ancestors), but I want to show that several family names in question are listed as families in Iga. The set of 8 books called Kosei Iran-ki (校正伊亂記) written by Momochi Orinosuke (百地織之助) in 1897 has a list of about 40 names. Togakure (戸隠) and Toda (戸田) are among those names.
    Dear George,
    Can you elaborate on this? Does the list say anything else about the names? Why does it list those 4o families?

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    Richard Maier
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