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Thread: Seminar Review / Dan Harden

  1. #31
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    Default

    For those following this subject, the thread on aikiweb was locked and eventually deleted after a few anticipated heated emotional responses from bitter ex-members and Neigong-gumi soldiers were posted. For those who missed it, consider yourself fortunate.

    One thing that is interesting is that - to date - not ONE person has contacted the Kodokai directly to solicit their views. Ever. Well, hopefully the situation will resolve itself.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #32
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    Default Membership standards

    I just stumbled across a reference on the main Takumakai webpage in Japan regarding their requirements for membership. Apparently they happen to have the same standard as the Kodokai in America (there was some discussion regarding this point on AikiWeb):

    http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm01.htm

    Membership:

    Available to the persons who passed 6 kyu or greater at the test of Shokyu Shodan Shinsa-kai (Dan/Kyu grading test). (Persons who haven't passed any test of Takumakai yet are accepted as provisional members.)
    FWIW,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  3. #33
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    Default Hi Nathan

    Hello,

    Forgive me, but if you were talking about me, I am not bitter.

    I was thrown out of the Kodokai many years ago and as it turns out it was one of the pivotial points in my life. I was a kid who didn't know what the world was about.

    I have since established a long term relationship with my teacher who has dabbled in the Kodokai arena a bit.

    I am personally still in contact with Goldberg Sensei occasionally and I look forward to the day we get back on the tatami together. In addition, I have great respect for Kiyama Sensei.

    Since I was only responding to your information, why don't you re-post it here and let me respond here where you are the moderator.

    Otherwise you are making comments that can't be backed up.

    I would appreciate if you have a comment to make about me, then state my name publicly, instead of making snide remarks. It only makes you look bad.

    Let me bottom line this for you.

    Your facts are wrong. Where ever you got your information is wrong. If they are trying to wipe him out, or just plain forgot....it doesn't matter.

    Once again, Dan he has studied Aiki or he is a martial genius. Honestly, I think it may be both.

    As for me, I 'm a humble student. I will be a for a long time.

    Things that I might be.....fat......old.....tired.....a good fisherman....

    Things that I am not.....bitter.

    Best regards,

    Howard

  4. #34
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    Hi Howard,

    Thanks for chiming in. The reason I don't post often to other forums is not because I don't have moderation control elsewhere, but because I don't have the time to live on all the various internet forums. I've been far more tolerant of emotional and irrational posts on this forum than Jun or anyone else would ever have. I stay active here at e-budo on some level because of my responsibilities to this forum.

    As far as bitter goes, you comments on aikiweb sure sounded bitter to me, based on how you seemed to jump on the opportunity to insert yourself into this issue and make irrelevant comments about the Kodokai kyu ranking system that seemed to imply that there is some type of ranking conspiracy here in America - apparently based on some off-hand comment Okamoto Sensei said to you. If you're in fact not bitter, then I'm glad to hear it. Good luck with your training - no hard feelings from my side.

    As far as my posting something about the Takumakai membership standards to this thread, that was for the benefit of those that may have bought into those comments as an indication of an unusual standard for membership. I didn't single you out out of courtesy, and because it really didn't matter which contributor brought it up. I simply thought it would be of interest for others to know that there is a precedence for this type of membership standard for Daito-ryu in Japan. If you want to take ownership of this subject, that's up to you. I wasn't planning on making a big deal about it, and didn't think it necessary to save the thread on aikiweb before it was deleted. As far as not being able to back up my comments, if you read my post you'll notice that my comment was in regards to how the Takumakai standard in Japan are consistent with the Kodokai standard here in America. There's nothing to back up.

    As far as my facts being wrong, I disagree. First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own "facts". If there is a discrepancy between what information the NA Kodokai Honbu has recorded, and the experience and credentials Dan really had with the Kodokai on the east coast, I can't comment on it because I don't know. What I do know is what the records reflect at the NA Honbu. You might read my post again, which was in response to a public claim of affiliation and standing posted by - someone else.

    You weren't the only contributor in the aikiweb thread to dive in and post emotional responses to the point of the thread being closed and eventually deleted. I don't know what your motivations are/were, but the information I posted in THIS thread was intended to document my response to the thread that was linked from here, and to post a couple of follow ups to those that either missed the other thread or were confused about some of the things that were implied.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
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    Default from Howard

    Nathan,

    Quite the contrary, I am the furthest thing from bitter.

    I can't speak to what other people told you, and honestly it doesn't matter.

    The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.

    Again, I truly have no quarrel with you, I just think its important to have the facts straight.

    Best regards,

    Howard

  6. #36
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    Default Ask Who? Is It Necessary?

    Gentlemen,

    Howard said, "The facts are simple and easy to verify. Just ask." Who should I (or Nathan, or anyone else who wants to know) ask?

    Nathan said, "First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own 'facts'." Does this mean that it is not necessary for anyone else to contact the NA Kodokai about this matter?

    Thanks in advance for your replies -

    Jim Sorrentino

  7. #37
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    Default from Howard

    Mr. Sorrentino,

    I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

    If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

    I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

    Best wishes,

    Howard

  8. #38
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    Default Huh?!?!?

    Hello Howard,

    Please call me Jim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Popkin View Post
    Mr. Sorrentino,

    I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

    If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

    I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

    Best wishes,

    Howard
    As I am sure you recall (because you posted to both this thread and the one which has been removed from AikiWeb), I and others asked Roy Goldberg about Dan Harden's training history and background, first at seminars we attended outside my dojo, and later at seminars which my dojo hosted. Roy provided information which I now believe was not true. Unfortunately, I believed it. As you know, I apologized to Dan, publicly and privately, for being misled and unwittingly calling Dan's reputation into question. Seriously, why you would suggest that I start that process all over again?

    Instead, how about if you enlighten me (and anyone else reading) with "your version of history"?

    Thanks in advance ---

    Sincerely,

    Jim

    Jim Sorrentino

  9. #39
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    Default Jim

    I haven't reached enlightenment yet

    I would ask around. Ask people who were there.

    Obviously something changed your mind.

    OR....

    Not.....does any of this really matter ? Who cares ? I don't think this has anywhere to go.....

    Water under the bridge....

    Keep training !

    Howard

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Popkin View Post
    The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.
    Well, it sounds like Nathan already HAS asked-- he not only asked the North American Kodokai and gave us their answer, but he has also encouraged others to contact the North American Kodokai as well.

    Who else should he ask? Roy Goldberg? According to the post that started this thread originally, Goldberg had this to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino
    By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has."
    It sounds like the problem here isn't a failure to ask-- people have contacted both the Kodokai organization through its website and Goldberg in particular. If you think that the information that they are getting from those sources isn't accurate, it would be great of you to provide them with a better starting point.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  11. #41
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    Default from Dan Harden

    Hello,

    Dan Harden asked me to post this as he hasn't been a member of e-budo for a while.


    Here is Dan's reply.

    _____________________________________

    Gentlemen
    This is starting to sound like a tempest in a teapot
    Why does any of this matter?
    I do not teach Daito ryu.
    I do not practice Daito ryu.
    I have no longer have any interest in Daito ryu whatsoever (Other than
    historically).

    Since I do not teach ANY traditional martial art whatsoever.
    Since I pay the bills for my own dojo and do not even take dues…
    It begs the question.
    What's the point?

    If you are that interested in Daito ryu, go find a teacher. Like Howard,
    I respect Kiyama and Goldberg's teaching efforts to forward that art. If anyone
    wants to train in Daito Ryu I would recommend (as I consistently have in these
    pages) Kiyama/ Goldberg or Okomoto/ Popkin.


    People from Daito ryu, aikido, Koryu, Judo and MMA continue to train with me in what I --actually- am doing with aiki outside the traditional arts. They continue to form their own opinions from first hand experience. I don't really care about everyone else's gossip about an art I have nothing to do with.

    Good luck in your training.
    Dan

  12. #42
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    Default

    Hi all,

    It is starting to sound like this subject is going around in circles, and since Dan is not a member here anymore, it makes it difficult to discuss issues such as this at any length.

    What I do find to be nice change is the tempered and polite responses. That is appreciated. Hell, this is starting to feel like a mature exchange between well-adjusted adults!!

    I'd suggest that if anyone has further questions or issues worth pursuing at this point, they take the initiative to contact some of the sources that have been suggested in this thread. Otherwise, lets move on to something more interesting or get back to training!

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 4th February 2010 at 03:33.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  13. #43
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    Default

    ............................
    Thomas Campbell

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    ...........................
    Last edited by Thomas_Campbell; 20th November 2016 at 01:02.
    Thomas Campbell

  15. #45
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    Folks might be interested in this video from the recent joint workshop with Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg. There are a number of videos available from the workshop, available here. Also there's a nice wrap-up at the end with Dan and Roy available here.

    Hopefully, that puts some of the issues on this thread to rest.

    Best,

    Chris

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