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Thread: Neifanchi

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    Question Neifanchi

    Hi all,

    I have question regarding the kata Neifanchi. From my limited reading it's from the shorin ryu style. There are three versions shodan, nidan, sandan.
    Besides that i heard that isshin ryu karateka practice it.

    Im interested to know is there a single combined version and if so who practices it?

    Thanks in advance,

    Marko Miletic
    Katsu!


    The moon has no intent to cast
    Its shadow anywhere, nor does
    The pond design to lodge the moon.

    Ito Ittosai

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    Hello Mr. Militec

    Perhaps I can share what I know as I myself want to have more understanding of the Naihanchi Kata.

    This is what practioner of Matsubayashi ryu see's The kata Naihanchi historically as:

    1) It is the Kata favored by the Karate-ka of Shuri and Tomari. In the old days these Naihanchi Kata were considered to be used as beginers kata.

    2) Naihanchi is older than the Pinan Kata ( Ankoh Itosu created the Pinan in 1907)

    3) So just how far can we traced the "Naihanchi Kata"

    According to Nagamine Sensei:

    Matsumora Kosaku studied under two teachers. From the first, Uku Giko (1800-50), he learned the Tomari-te naihanchi kata (there are three kata in the series). After three years with Giko, Matsumora was referred to Teruya Kishin (1804-64), from whom he learned passai and wanshu.

    Noticed that I bolded Uku Giko, perhaps from there we could traced it up but, there are no known documents and eye-witness that might tell us where Uku Giko learned the kata from. This is where my search ends. Hope this helps a bit !

    Thanks
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    I was under the impression that Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the kata which Shotokan stylists call Tekki Shodan.

    Soken Matsumura (as well as Matsumora) practiced it. I believe Matsumura learned it from Iwah.

    If you notice, the kata starts with the hands crossed which is the way many Goju Ryu forms begin. Off the top of my head, wasn't Iwah also one of Aragaki's teacher's teachers who may have passed this style of Yoi to Higashionna - hence the common start of the forms.

    Tekki Nidan and Sandan were, as far as I understand, created by Itosu Anko. Certain instructors (either Mabuni, Motobu or Otsuka from what I can remember) referred to 2 and 3 as "more or less useless" but considered Shodan to be the cornerstone of Shuri Te.

    I don't think all the Pinan/Heian forms were created by Itosu. The chances are at least Shodan and Nidan were practiced (maybe called Channan) by Matsumura - that's why they are in Hohan Soken's syllabus.

    But I'm open to correction.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan

    1) I was under the impression that Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the kata which Shotokan stylists call Tekki Shodan.

    2) Soken Matsumura (as well as Matsumora) practiced it. I believe Matsumura learned it from Iwah.

    3) If you notice, the kata starts with the hands crossed which is the way many Goju Ryu forms begin. Off the top of my head, wasn't Iwah also one of Aragaki's teacher's teachers who may have passed this style of Yoi to Higashionna - hence the common start of the forms.

    4) Tekki Nidan and Sandan were, as far as I understand, created by Itosu Anko. Certain instructors (either Mabuni, Motobu or Otsuka from what I can remember) referred to 2 and 3 as "more or less useless" but considered Shodan to be the cornerstone of Shuri Te.

    5) I don't think all the Pinan/Heian forms were created by Itosu. The chances are at least Shodan and Nidan were practiced (maybe called Channan) by Matsumura - that's why they are in Hohan Soken's syllabus.

    6) But I'm open to correction.
    1) This is correct.

    2) in theory perhaps, again due to lack of ducumentations but its a good theory nonetheless.

    3) Not a Goju ryu practioner so I can't comment much on it.

    4) I believed it was Otsuka Sensei who made the qoute.

    5) Others may say that Itosu's Pinan were taken from the kata Kusanko, Others may say Channan.

    6) We all are ! So keep it coming please
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Thanks.

    I've never been entirely confortable with the theory that Pinan/Heian comes directly/purely from Kushanku/Kanku Dai.

    There are obviously certain sequences, particularly in Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan)found in Kushanku, but then there are also techniques (for example in Godan) which seem to cross-reference Bassai Dai (Passai) and other kata more strongly.

    I'd suggest that Kushanku and Heian Shodan/Nidan in an early form (possibly Channan) were formulated by Tode Sakugawa based on the techniques and forms taught to him by Kushanku himself and these were passed onto Bushi Matsumura.

    Unfortunately I only really have the Shotokan versions of these forms to go off other than little bits and bobs I've seen of other styles.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    Thanks.

    I've never been entirely confortable with the theory that Pinan/Heian comes directly/purely from Kushanku/Kanku Dai.

    There are obviously certain sequences, particularly in Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan)found in Kushanku, but then there are also techniques (for example in Godan) which seem to cross-reference Bassai Dai (Passai) and other kata more strongly.

    I'd suggest that Kushanku and Heian Shodan/Nidan in an early form (possibly Channan) were formulated by Tode Sakugawa based on the techniques and forms taught to him by Kushanku himself and these were passed onto Bushi Matsumura.

    Unfortunately I only really have the Shotokan versions of these forms to go off other than little bits and bobs I've seen of other styles.
    I'd say its a divided feelings on the origin of the pinan. Someday soon some archeologist might dig up some artifiacts That might give us the truth !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Default naihanchi

    here is a link to a discussion on the kata - on a forum that i visit - it was some time ago now - but there are a lot of good links in the thread

    http://www.gojuforums.com/forum/topi...erms=naifanchi
    Toban Taplin

    That which we achieve too cheaply we esteem too lightly

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    I have a limited understanding of Kata. But I see Pasai, Kusanku, and Jion,in the Pinan forms. I see the Naihanshi being taught first for the method of generating power in a stationary Horse stance before learning to generate power in Front, or Cat stances. I prefer to look at the purpose more than the history not to say the history isn't important. I just need to know the proper methods of training and their purpose so it has more value in the here and now.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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    As far as training stances goes, Naihanchi may be the strongest but I believe the Pinans instill far more fundamental skills which should be practiced first, and Naihanchi naturally follows.
    If you think of the original sequence - Pinan Shodan then Pinan Nidan then Pinan Sandan (Heian Nidan, Shodan, Sandan), the first movement of Pinan Nidan involves raising both hands in defence. Whether you interpret that technique to be a block or a lock or whatever a flinch block using two hands is the most natural way to defend yourself. Yondan begins similarly with a two-handed "flinch block".
    Practising Sandan and Godan builds the same kind of kime that will be needed later in Naihanchi - think of the lateral movement in Godan and it's similarity with the sideways movement of Naihanchi. And think of the "one hand up one hand down" block of Sandan and the similarities to the technique in Naihanchi where the hands use this motion.

    I believe Itosu and Funakoshi knew exactly what they were doing when they began to teach the Pinans before the Naihanchi - they are great forms to begin with and come back to again and again.

    Incidently the order I teach in is Pinan (Heians), Naihanchi (Tekki), Gekisai (from Goju Ryu), Passai (Bassai Dai), Kushanku (Kanku Dai), Wansu (Empi) then others such as Jutte.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Im of the opinion that the base movement, rooting, power generation and delivery methods of shorin ryu are introduced by the practising of the first 2 Pinans (we train them as one kata) and Naihanchi (again we train 1,2 together).

    Pinan 1,2 seem to come from a different source than 3,4,5 IMO.

    Naihanchi 3 seems to be an add on to the first 2 IMO.

    of course IMO counts for very little but thats where we are at !
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

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    Hi Jim
    You've got mail....
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Good stuff!

    Naihanchi and Tekki are the same origins. In our style, Naihanchi Shodan is taught as the first kata after the kihon (basic) kata.

    I see lots of the bassai and Kusanku kata in the Pinan Kata and even a bit of Chinto.

    Most of the references I have credit Itosu with the creation of the Pinan kata as part of his introduction of karate into the school system.

    Note that there is a difference in what styles call Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan. Some of them have reversed the two kata and their names. My style (very traditional from Chosin Chibana/Shinpan Gusukuma) has the double block as the start of Pinan Shodan.
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    As far as training stances goes, Naihanchi may be the strongest but I believe the Pinans instill far more fundamental skills which should be practiced first, and Naihanchi naturally follows.

    (edit)

    I believe Itosu and Funakoshi knew exactly what they were doing when they began to teach the Pinans before the Naihanchi - they are great forms to begin with and come back to again and again.
    As Chris mentioned earlier, Naihanchi teaches you to generate power
    without the benefit of forward movement. The Pinans depend on
    closing the gap to generate power. The assumption there is you have
    established the enemy and are moving toward them. In a surprise attack,
    you are more likely to be surprised and rooted.

    Itosu didn't always teach the Pinans first. As far as I know, all of
    Shorin-ryu were taught the Naihanchi first in the old days. Naihanchi
    was my first kata after the kihon katas like Blackwood.
    We did one kata, one year.

    Peace.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Default Great Info

    To all who have posted, thank you.

    My interest in this kata began after reading an essay by Miyagi Chojun that included a point regarding training.

    You can see it here http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/outline.html

    It's under paragraph 8.

    He speaks of the Preparatory Exercises in which he includes the neifanchi kata. I was somewhat suprised as i hadn't even heard of the kata in goju ryu.

    I looked up a video of it and found it to be a kata that i definately would like to master.

    You can see it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE

    From my point of view i can see how neifanchi fits in perfectly with sanchin and Tensho. Sanchin being a strong breathing kata (go) Tensho flowing and soft (ju) and neifanchi being what goju is about, In-fighting.

    I'd love to know why it was dropped from the japanese mainland goju line.

    Could someone tell me which styles practice the shodan version?


    Thanks to all again,

    Marko Miletic
    Katsu!


    The moon has no intent to cast
    Its shadow anywhere, nor does
    The pond design to lodge the moon.

    Ito Ittosai

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    Once upon a time when I was a student of Shorin Ryu I was taught all three Naihanchi before learning the Pinan forms. I can’t think of a more important skill than the ability to explode with the center of the body’s power plant and release power in all the directions as is present in these first three forms. This is a very important skill to have if attacked suddenly. The hands are used in combination in all directions from one side of the body to the other one technique beginning from where the last one ended with explosive core snap in the hips. All this minus any momentum gained from stepping forward. I find it is easier to generate snapping hip action in a front stance than it is in a horse stance. IMHO snapping hip action is the core of our power source. I could be wrong like I said I have only a limited understanding of Kata.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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