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Thread: What actually makes an art 'internal'?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    ...How can they be "doing it wrong???"

    Remember my argument is that someone can mess up an internal arts just as easily as they can mess up anything else.
    ...
    They can do internal wrong by doing it externally by switching from following rules for internal generation of percieved power to external.

    Most tai chi, especially combat tai chi, is external in practice and application, even in Chen systems. I myself did 15 years of external tai chi and bagua while doing karate. No real difference except the forms were new.

    If your internal opponent breaks your nose, he probaby broke it just like a karate guy would or a boxer, without any internal stuff at all.

    Now I'm learning an amazingly different way to move and way to generate power and it follows the tai chi classics.

    Much in the Chinese systems were lost in the cultural revolution; much in Chinese systems is secret and demos do the form wrong to hide these secrets, except from indoor disciples.

    If these internal friends of yours hit the same as your external system buddies, something is wrong.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  2. #47
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    Sochin

    Or maybe just like every other newbie, they simply fail to apply the lesson learned effectivly--which can happen to anyone of any art at any time.

    Unlike Asura, who seems to feel that there is some kind of de-facto superority in HIS groups approach to the internal arts.

    I tend to look at arts as extensions of the people using them.

    I can't put Taji in a ring and have it fight Hsing-I---I can only "match" them when filtered thu living breathing people.

    And people are vastly different.

    I don't really think you can seperate the person from the art.
    In persons "A's" hands Tai Chi is an effective and punishing martial art, in the hands of person "B" it can't be used to fight off an attack of kittens.

    Its not the art--its the person.

    Like I said before, a punch in the face from my internal buddy feels no more or no less painful or effective than a punch in the face from my buddy the boxer or the TKD guys I know or Shotokan, or Goju people I have trained with, or the Wing Chun guy I sparred with last fall.

    Of similer size, weight, years of training or course.

    The assumption you and Asura etc are making is that "there must be somthing wrong" with them is both fallcious and assumptive--Oh, and ITS "wrong."
    Unless you can provide more than just your "say so" of the supposed power of internal striking methods----good luck with that--love to see it BTW

    I'm going to have to side with physics, common sense and not having fallen off the turnip truck yesterday.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Sochin

    Or maybe just like every other newbie, they simply fail to apply the lesson learned effectivly--which can happen to anyone of any art at any time.

    Unlike Asura, who seems to feel that there is some kind of de-facto superority in HIS groups approach to the internal arts.

    I tend to look at arts as extensions of the people using them.

    I can't put Taji in a ring and have it fight Hsing-I---I can only "match" them when filtered thu living breathing people.

    And people are vastly different.

    I don't really think you can seperate the person from the art.
    In persons "A's" hands Tai Chi is an effective and punishing martial art, in the hands of person "B" it can't be used to fight off an attack of kittens.

    Its not the art--its the person.

    Like I said before, a punch in the face from my internal buddy feels no more or no less painful or effective than a punch in the face from my buddy the boxer or the TKD guys I know or Shotokan, or Goju people I have trained with, or the Wing Chun guy I sparred with last fall.

    Of similer size, weight, years of training or course.

    The assumption you and Asura etc are making is that "there must be somthing wrong" with them is both fallcious and assumptive--Oh, and ITS "wrong."
    Unless you can provide more than just your "say so" of the supposed power of internal striking methods----good luck with that--love to see it BTW

    I'm going to have to side with physics, common sense and not having fallen off the turnip truck yesterday.
    The internal strikes I have felt, feel heavier, the reason being is how much weight is actually going into the punch.

    This doesn't mean leaning more into the punch, thats what I always thought about when someone meant using more bodyweight. It has more to do with alingment to maximize how much of that bodyweight force is entering the person. Now, external forms definatly stress proper alignment, but they don't stress the internal feelings to develop that alignment, and how the force exerted by an outside body when struck effects that, to anything more than the extent of how doing so could damage yourself. (or at least what I have found doing 13 years of predominatly external arts).

    The result is that when you punch someone in such a way, more of the power that you have exerted goes into your opponent and less of it goes back into you.

    I know exactly where you are coming from, I once thought along the same way, but as I stated earlier, perhaps there isn't as much mass behind the technique as you think.
    Hunter Lonsberry

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    hl

    I honestly mean no offense---but your "explination" makes little sense.

    Stuff like "bodyweight force entering a person" sounds nice even kinda scientific---but its largely just "sounds" like it actually means something concrete.

    As far as "more of the power goes into your oppt and less back into you"

    Love to see to the math for that----as well some shred of proof that such things are the sole provience of the internal systems.

    Actually physic's provides very detailed information on how bodies recact when struck.
    Do a pretty good job with things like mass, acceleration, impact forces, velocity etc.

    No, you have no clue "where I'm coming from"---your letting the fact that I belive that claims require proofs.
    And that I am putting claims made here to a critical analysis to effect your perceptions of me--its giving you a erronous impression.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Unlike Asura, who seems to feel that there is some kind of de-facto superority in HIS groups approach to the internal arts.
    From my experience, there is indeed a superiority to the approach taken by Asura's group. Before training with them in Japan, I had not encountered a group that teaches internal bodyskill in such a direct manner. This becomes evident when you witness the degree of skill exhibited by many students in the class with only a year-or-so of training. This in and of itself gives me reason to believe that Rob and his instructor are on to something.. even (gasp), a superior approach.

    I certainly agree that it is the person, not the art. I would say that Rob's group deals with this concept directly in that they training students from the very basics of how to move with a greater degree of bodyskill. This is quite a contrast to simply training in technique 'arts' that teaches you to twist your hips when you punch. By focusing on training these fundamentals of body movement and equilibrium, you are essentially training the person much more than teaching an art.
    *inactive*

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    hl

    I honestly mean no offense---but your "explination" makes little sense.

    Stuff like "bodyweight force entering a person" sounds nice even kinda scientific---but its largely just "sounds" like it actually means something concrete.

    As far as "more of the power goes into your oppt and less back into you"

    Love to see to the math for that----as well some shred of proof that such things are the sole provience of the internal systems.

    Actually physic's provides very detailed information on how bodies recact when struck.
    Do a pretty good job with things like mass, acceleration, impact forces, velocity etc.

    No, you have no clue "where I'm coming from"---your letting the fact that I belive that claims require proofs.
    And that I am putting claims made here to a critical analysis to effect your perceptions of me--its giving you a erronous impression.

    As an engineer I am quite familiar with the concepts you are referring too. If you are familiar with statics then you well know about how forces are distributed and how there are push back effects (from simple physics) when one object strikes another or when being loaded. Go kick a telephone pole, clearly force exerted by your leg goes back into you, assuming you don't knock the telephone pole over.

    As for I know where you are coming from, I once thought the way you did with regards to external and internal being more or less the same. I thought the body mechanics being trained were the same, turns out they aren't.

    Let me ask you a question, how do you put more bodyweight into a punch? Is it leaning in more? Is it using the back foot more to propell you forwards? Clearly you can't increase the mass in the F=MA equation, but how can you get more of it involved when striking?

    You also failed to address my point with regards to examining the effects of exerting force on an outside object back within your own body. In my own experience with the internal martial arts this is a key difference. Now if you want mathematical equations to describe how a feeling within my own body feels, that is going to be difficult. A free body diagrain could be possible, however to model all 206 bones and corresponding joints will be quite difficult to express a feeling.

    I spoke of alignment earlier, and as I clearly stated teaching proper alignment is not the sole providence of IMA. I will reiterate again, that the teachings of how this alignment effects one's ownself is different between external and internal training methodologies.
    Hunter Lonsberry

  7. #52
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    ImBatman

    And its exactly that smug attitude of claimed/assumed "superority" that marks Asura/Mike Sigman and company etc interaction around here.

    And that attitude cause problems---for them.

    It was clear from the very first posts what direction this was heading--- the phraseology seldom lies.

    Its odd---the number of people that DON'T feel the knee-jerk need to log onto websites and loudly proclaim the "superority" of THIER teacher, THEIR personal approach and THIER methodology.

    The ones that DO feel such a need are seldom worth listening too.

    In contrast, those worth listening too seldom need to brag or toot their own horn.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  8. #53
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    hl

    Your not LISTENING to me.

    I told told you have no idea where I'm coming from.

    I'm NOT saying that I think/feel the internal and external art are "more or less the same."

    Never even suggest such a things--they are not.

    I'm suggesting that the results ARE "pretty much the same" ie how you generate the force used in blow is secondary to its effects.

    In any measurable aspect anyway.

    "Feelings" are indeed difficult to model

    Which is precisely why that carry no weight (yes that's a contextual pun ) in arguement and precisley why they are scorned in place of facts.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    The assumption you and Asura etc are making is that "there must be somthing wrong" with them is both fallcious and assumptive--Oh, and ITS "wrong." Unless you can provide more than just your "say so" of the supposed power of internal striking methods----good luck with that--love to see it BTW
    Chris, can you hold that thought? I've bought their hook, line, and sinker, and have started training with Akuzawa's stuff (from a baseline of almost zero martial experience). If I can get to an interesting level of development in the next 6-18 months I will be looking for people to test myself against. If we meet you can tell me if I feel just like everyone else.

    I don't know that this stuff is better. I just have my feelings to go on for now.
    Last edited by Tom H.; 10th November 2006 at 22:03.
    Tom Holz

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    Perhaps a good way to advance this convesation is to find video which shows the effect on the body when someone is struck with an internal type strike and a similiar strike done by someone approaching it from an external type strike.

    Yes, both can cause a KO, but if you look how it effects the body itself it is quite different. Perhaps that will get around the questions of how it feels different.
    Hunter Lonsberry

  11. #56
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    Tom

    Again---back to the whole "its the person" thing.

    What you can or can't do to me PERSONALLY is hardly relevent--as all sorts of factors play into overt effectiveness.

    Consider this--if we were to meet and I was to trash you--would you honestly give up what you do and switch to something else???

    I wouldn't.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  12. #57
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    hl

    I have no trust in videos---I can produce a video of me talking with alien beings from the Crab Nebula if you give me some time.

    (interesting beings--but a bit "stuffy" as they have 3 legs they are able to get much more of their body weight into blows without loseing balance the way we bipeds can--so they kinda make fun of us about it. )

    The best way to advance this conversation is by laying off claims that can't be supported.

    You "feel" one way--I "feel" another.

    The difference is that I'm not makeing claims based upon my "feelings."
    Last edited by cxt; 10th November 2006 at 22:23.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Consider this--if we were to meet and I was to trash you--would you honestly give up what you do and switch to something else???
    Yes. I've done it before, painfully. Not in the martial arts, though..

    (It kind of depends on what we're comparing.. I'm not sure I want to enter a semi-holds-barred fighting world like MMA. If I don't, I fully expect a good experienced fighter to take me out for the same reason that performance with weights in the gym is unrelated to performance in the ring against an aggressive opponent.)
    Last edited by Tom H.; 10th November 2006 at 22:48.
    Tom Holz

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    Chris, with all due respect, you will never get an answer to your question that you can truly absorb until you get on the mats. Verbal explanations do little or nothing to show the differences between internal and external power. You need to have it demonstrated to you. It's heady, esoteric stuff.

    If you ever have the opportunity to train with a true internal-arts practitioner, that will be your best way to understand. I hate to see you keep going in circles, with Rob and others trying to explain, and you thinking you're getting a runaround.

    For heaven sake, man, get on the mats!
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady

    Ok, with all due respect--I'll say it AGAIN.

    Have trained with a number of internal guys (and a gal) have experienced it first hand.

    Understand quite well its effectiveness.

    I just don't run around publically proclaiming how "badass" it to all and sundry.

    My objections AGAIN are claims made on-line without a shred of proof backing it up.

    I object to sloppy thinking, poor science and nebulous post hoc rationaliaztions--as should you.

    I object to "heady esoteric stuff" when--as it is here--being couched in smug "superior" attitude, in place of specifics.

    Never met Rob, as far as I know have never even spoken to him.

    But Asura and company most certainly are, as you so aptly put, giving folks the "run around."
    Last edited by cxt; 10th November 2006 at 23:57.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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