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Thread: Judo, Maeda, BJJ, GJJ

  1. #1
    MarkF Guest

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    The following was written by Joe Svinth and is an entry to a martial arts encyclopedia. If any of you have experience (Bill and Jeff C. hint, hint), please offer anything which may be of help or facts not represented correctly. information which may be important, etc.

    Remember, this is not to be an exact or complete history of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or judo, for that matter, but more of a historic (current history as well) look at what this form of submission grappling is, or from where it came. In other words, it is more of a definition.

    Thanks in advance for anything you may know on the subject.

    Mark

    BTW: Joe has been having browser problems, and although he didn't ask me to post this, I thought there may be some changes/corrections needed.

    BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU
    Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a grappling system that maintains both sport and combat forms. The art was derived from Japanese antecedents in 20th century Brazil.
    Brazilian jiu-jitsu is virtually synonymous with the Gracie family, through whose lineage the system was passed and whose members modified the original Japanese art into its present features. Currently, however, instructors are not necessarily members of the Gracie family. Therefore, a distinction exists between Brazilian jiu-jitsu in general and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (a registered trademark).
    The parent system of Brazilian jiu-jitsu is Kodokan Judo, and while he was not the first judoka in Brazil -- this was a man named Miura in 1908 -- he was certainly the first to be influential. Therefore some background is required.
    Maeda was born in Aomori Prefecture, Japan, in November 1878. At age 17 he moved to Tokyo, where, on June 6, 1897, he joined the Kodokan, which was Japan’s most famous Judo school. There he was a direct student of Kodokan director Sakujiro Yokoyama, a former Tenjin Yoshin-ryu jujutsu practitioner famous for his participation in challenge matches and fights.
    By 1903 Maeda was graded fourth dan (fourth degree black belt) in Judo. As the highest rank in those days was seventh dan, this suggests enormous talent. As a result, in 1904 he was invited to go to the United States with Tsunejiro Tomita, Judo founder Jigoro Kano’s original student; the idea was for Tomita to explain the theory of Judo while Maeda demonstrated its application. But in the United States, Tomita was challenged, accepted, and defeated. This embarrassed Maeda and so he went off on his own to become a professional wrestler.
    From 1906 to 1908, Maeda wrestled in the United States, Britain, Belgium, and Spain, and it was in the latter country that he adopted his stage name of Conte Koma. The name was a pun: read one way, it meant Count of Combat while read another it meant Count of [Economic] Troubles.
    From 1909 to 1913, Maeda wrestled in Mexico, Cuba, Costa Rica, and the Canal Zone, and he is said to have had only two defeats in over 2,000 matches. Unlike contemporary Brazilian jiu-jitsu stylists, who often attack with strikes, then follow up with groundwork, Maeda concentrated almost solely on chokes and joint-locks. In other words, he did orthodox Japanese newaza, or groundwork.
    As a wrestler, Maeda was known for issuing challenges, including one to Jack Johnson, the world heavyweight boxing champion. Maeda’s student Carlos Gracie followed this example by advertising in Brazilian newspapers his willingness to take on all comers. In turn, Carlos’ younger brother, Hélio, challenged reigning world heavyweight champion Joe Louis while Hélio’s son Royce challenged Mike Tyson. In none of these cases did anything come of the challenges, however.
    Maeda’s Judo has been described as more rough and tumble than modern Judo. However, some of this apparent roughness is owed to the venue -- professional wrestling takes place in music halls, circuses, and armories rather than high school gyms, and is done for the amusement of a paying crowd rather than judged on points.
    There are differences in accounts of how Maeda met the Gracies. In the accounts generally given by the Gracie family, Carlos Gracie, one of five sons of Gastão Gracie, began his training with Maeda in 1914 (or 1915). Other sources maintain that in 1915, Maeda was a member of Japanese a wrestling troupe known as “the Four Kings”, and that he did not start working for the Queirollo Brother's American Circus until 1917. If so, then this was probably where and when he met the Gracie family, as in 1916 Gastão Gracie was reportedly managing an Italian boxer associated with the Queirollo circus. At any rate, during the mid-to-late 1910s Maeda began teaching the rudiments of Judo to Carlos Gracie.
    Around 1922 Maeda left the circus to begin promoting Japanese immigration into Brazil. Three years later Gracie opened a wrestling gym in Rio de Janeiro and this latter event marks the official birth of the system known today as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
    After Gracie quit training with Maeda, the core art underwent a process of modification. Many articles suggest that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's emphasis on groundwork is due to Maeda and Carlos not having tatami on which to practice throws and so taking all fights to the ground. However, books by Carlos Gracie published during the 1940s showed very little groundwork, only some Judo throws. Therefore, it is possible that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's modern emphasis on groundwork owes more to the innovations of Hélio Gracie.
    A professional wrestler as an adult, as a boy Hélio Gracie was the youngest and least robust of five brothers. Because of this, he soon learned to rely on technique rather than strength. And, as he made his living wrestling all-comers in circuses, his focus was on submission wrestling. So, when Masahiko Kimura wrestled Hélio Gracie in October 1951, “What he saw reminded him of the earlier Judo methods that were rough and tumble. Prewar (prior to WWII) Judo had body locks, leg locks, unusual choking techniques that were discarded because they were not legal in contest Judo, which had evolved slowly over the years” (Wang).
    During the 1980s, Hélio Gracie’s sons took the family art to California, and during the 1990s Rorion and Royce Gracie made Gracie Jiu-Jitsu internationally famous due to well-publicized victories in pay-per-view Ultimate Fighting Championship™ (UFC) events. In 1994, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu also was introduced into US Army Ranger training at Fort Benning, Georgia, though here the idea was more to teach self-confidence than to improve individual lethality in combat.
    Although punches, kicks, and fighting from the standing position were added to Brazilian jiu-jitsu during the 1990s to keep it competitive in mixed-martial art/no-holds-barred competition, for their part the Gracies continue to emphasize maneuvering for opportunities in which to apply joint locks and chokes. The reason, they say, is that most one-on-one fights end up as grappling contests on the ground, and so one might as well get there as quickly as possible.
    Toward this end, particular attention is paid to the ground positions labeled the “mount” and the “guard.” In the mounted position, the combatant straddles an upward-facing downed opponent, with the legs past the opponent’s hips. The goal is to set up a choke or a joint lock or to deliver strikes. A variation is the “side mount” in which the practitioner is on top of an opponent, chest to chest at a 90 degree angle. Meanwhile, the “guard” refers to the opposite position, where the opponent is on top of the practitioner. The standard Brazilian jiu-jitsu “guard” places the opponent between one’s legs, which encircle the attacker just above hips; an alternative is the “half-guard”, in which the defender uses the legs to trap one of the legs of the mounted opponent.
    Although Rorion Gracie maintains that one can learn all the techniques of Brazilian jiu-jitsu after just forty classes, learning to apply these techniques against uncooperative opponents in combative contexts requires years of practice. So, toward showing relative standing, Brazilian jiu-jitsu utilizes a ranking system similar to that of Kodokan Judo. Rank is designated by a colored belt wrapped and tied at the waist of the uniform, which is also similar to the loose cotton trousers and jacket of Judo. Belt ranks for children run from white (for beginners) to yellow, orange, green, brown and black and for adults white, blue, purple, brown and black. Like the dan system of contemporary Japanese martial arts, the black belt progresses through various grades of ascending numbers (i.e., first degree, second degree, etc.).
    During the 1990s, various organizations arose both in Brazil and abroad espousing variations of the core teachings of Maeda as modified by Carlos and Hélio Gracie. Thus “Gracie Jiu-Jitsu” has become a trademark used by various members of the Gracie family of Brazil whose schools are autonomous while other instructors such as the Machado brothers (nephews and students of Carlos Gracie), refer to their systems as Brazilian, as distinct from Gracie, jiu-jitsu.

    Bibliography
    Barbosa de Medeiros, Rildo Heros. "The History of Judo: The Arrival to Brazil: Count Koma," http://www.Judobrasil.com.br/komtr.htm.
    Gorsuch, Mark. "Mitsuyo Maeda (Count Koma) Biography,"
    http://bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html.
    Harrison, E.J. The Fighting Spirit of Japan. Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press, 1982. 65-73.
    Lima, Andre Alex. 1999, “Who’s Who in the Gracie Family,” Martial Arts Masters. Burbank, CA: C.F.W. Enterprises. 102-109.
    Marushima, Takao. Maeda Mitsuyo: Conte Koma. Tokyo: Shimazu Shobo, 1997. (In Japanese)
    Smith, Robert W. "Kimura", in Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century. Erie, PA: Via Media Publishing Co., 1999. 133-134.
    Wang, George. "History of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu," http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html
    Williams, James and Stanley A. Pranin, "Interview with Rorion Gracie," Aikido Journal, 105 (Fall 1995), http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ws/Gracie.htm.

    See also: http://webhost.avint.net/munjudo/kimura_gracie1.mpg
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura.htm

  2. #2
    Yamantaka Guest

    Post BJJ

    Originally posted by MarkF
    "BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU
    Maeda was born in Aomori Prefecture, Japan, in November 1878. At age 17 he moved to Tokyo, where, on June 6, 1897, he joined the Kodokan, which was Japan’s most famous Judo school. There he was a direct student of Kodokan director Sakujiro Yokoyama, a former Tenjin Yoshin-ryu jujutsu practitioner famous for his participation in challenge matches and fights."

    YAMANTAKA : Wouldn't that be TENSHIN(Tenjin) SHIN'YO RYU JUJUTSU?

    "From 1906 to 1908, Maeda wrestled in the United States, Britain, Belgium, and Spain, and it was in the latter country that he adopted his stage name of Conte Koma. The name was a pun: read one way, it meant Count of Combat while read another it meant Count of [Economic] Troubles."

    YAMANTAKA : The correct alias was CONDE (Count in Spanish) KOMA.

    "As a wrestler, Maeda was known for issuing challenges, including one to Jack Johnson, the world heavyweight boxing champion. Maeda’s student Carlos Gracie followed this example by advertising in Brazilian newspapers his willingness to take on all comers. In turn, Carlos’ younger brother, Hélio, challenged reigning world heavyweight champion Joe Louis while Hélio’s son Royce challenged Mike Tyson. In none of these cases did anything come of the challenges, however."

    YAMANTAKA : For the very simple reason, that it was done as a "show-off" or marketing bout. No world boxing champion would accept such a challenge for two reasons : unnecessary risk and lower prizes (a champion in box earns much more defending his title than could be achieved in a mixed event).

    "At any rate, during the mid-to-late 1910s Maeda began teaching the rudiments of Judo to Carlos Gracie.
    Around 1922 Maeda left the circus to begin promoting Japanese immigration into Brazil. Three years later Gracie opened a wrestling gym in Rio de Janeiro and this latter event marks the official birth of the system known today as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. "

    YAMANTAKA : That shows that the Gracie's training with Maeda was relatively short. All development of Judo's Newaza (good or bad) may be atributed solely to the Gracies.

    "After Gracie quit training with Maeda, the core art underwent a process of modification. Many articles suggest that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's emphasis on groundwork is due to Maeda and Carlos not having tatami on which to practice throws and so taking all fights to the ground. However, books by Carlos Gracie published during the 1940s showed very little groundwork, only some Judo throws. Therefore, it is possible that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's modern emphasis on groundwork owes more to the innovations of Hélio Gracie."

    YAMANTAKA : I think both things may be right. I never heard about any books by Carlos Gracie but it's very well known that Maeda taught just newaza to the Gracies. The improvements(good or bad) were done in what the Gracies have learned.

    " The reason, they say, is that most one-on-one fights end up as grappling contests on the ground, and so one might as well get there as quickly as possible."

    YAMANTAKA : I have serious doubts about this "staple dogma" of Gracie Jujutsu ("most fights end in the ground"). The true origin of Newaza wasn't that. Newaza was a "last stand", when everything else failed or when a samurai or a policemen wish to immobilize a nobleman without killing him. Most fighters are intent on avoiding going to the ground, since it's a very bad position, mainly if the fight is not a "one-on-one".

    "Although Rorion Gracie maintains that one can learn all the techniques of Brazilian jiu-jitsu after just forty classes, learning to apply these techniques against uncooperative opponents in combative contexts requires years of practice."

    YAMANTAKA : As in every martial art. But Rorion is right. Jujutsu (due to its origins) have just a few techniques and they can be learned in a very short time.


    Bibliography
    Barbosa de Medeiros, Rildo Heros. "The History of Judo: The Arrival to Brazil: Count Koma," http://www.Judobrasil.com.br/komtr.htm.
    Gorsuch, Mark. "Mitsuyo Maeda (Count Koma) Biography,"
    http://bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html.
    Harrison, E.J. The Fighting Spirit of Japan. Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press, 1982. 65-73.
    Lima, Andre Alex. 1999, “Who’s Who in the Gracie Family,” Martial Arts Masters. Burbank, CA: C.F.W. Enterprises. 102-109.
    Marushima, Takao. Maeda Mitsuyo: Conte Koma. Tokyo: Shimazu Shobo, 1997. (In Japanese)
    Smith, Robert W. "Kimura", in Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century. Erie, PA: Via Media Publishing Co., 1999. 133-134.
    Wang, George. "History of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu," http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html
    Williams, James and Stanley A. Pranin, "Interview with Rorion Gracie," Aikido Journal, 105 (Fall 1995), http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ws/Gracie.htm.

    See also: http://webhost.avint.net/munjudo/kimura_gracie1.mpg
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura.htm
    YAMANTAKA : The bibliography is all right. There's very little to consult, either in Brazil or else.
    By the way, I made this same remarks to Joe Svinth recently. Hope they can be of some help.
    Best

  3. #3
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    Default Re: BJJ

    Originally posted by YAMANTAKA
    Originally posted by MarkF
    ...he adopted his stage name of Conte Koma. The name was a pun: read one way, it meant Count of Combat while read another it meant Count of [Economic] Troubles."

    YAMANTAKA : The correct alias was CONDE (Count in Spanish) KOMA.
    "Conde" is the correct spelling in Portuguese, as well.

    "Koma" also means "coma," so the monicker "Conde Koma" also means something along the lines of "King of Knock-outs" or "Kayo King." "Coma" means "coma" in Spanish and Portuguese, as well. Can't see where "combat" comes into the picture.

    "Koma" is also an alternative reading of Maeda's given name, Kosei (also read "Mitsuyo").
    "After Gracie quit training with Maeda, the core art underwent a process of modification. Many articles suggest that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's emphasis on groundwork is due to Maeda and Carlos not having tatami on which to practice throws and so taking all fights to the ground. However, books by Carlos Gracie published during the 1940s showed very little groundwork, only some Judo throws. Therefore, it is possible that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu's modern emphasis on groundwork owes more to the innovations of Hélio Gracie."

    YAMANTAKA : I think both things may be right. I never heard about any books by Carlos Gracie but it's very well known that Maeda taught just newaza to the Gracies. The improvements(good or bad) were done in what the Gracies have learned.
    If you watch some Kosen-style Kodokan newaza, you'll see a _very_ strong resemblance to BJJ. I'd be hard pressed to say what "improvements" have been made, by Helio or anyone else. The only real difference seems to be that Kosen-style has better tachiwaza.
    Bibliography
    Barbosa de Medeiros, Rildo Heros. "The History of Judo: The Arrival to Brazil: Count Koma," http://www.Judobrasil.com.br/komtr.htm
    Gorsuch, Mark. "Mitsuyo Maeda (Count Koma) Biography,"
    http://bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html
    Harrison, E.J. The Fighting Spirit of Japan. Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press, 1982. 65-73.
    Lima, Andre Alex. 1999, “Who’s Who in the Gracie Family,” Martial Arts Masters. Burbank, CA: C.F.W. Enterprises. 102-109.
    Marushima, Takao. Maeda Mitsuyo: Conte Koma. Tokyo: Shimazu Shobo, 1997. (In Japanese)
    Smith, Robert W. "Kimura", in Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century. Erie, PA: Via Media Publishing Co., 1999. 133-134.
    Wang, George. "History of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu," http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html
    Williams, James and Stanley A. Pranin, "Interview with Rorion Gracie," Aikido Journal, 105 (Fall 1995), http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ews/Gracie.htm

    See also: http://webhost.avint.net/munjudo/kimura_gracie1.mpg
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura.htm
    A few of these links didn't work due to minor typos. I've taken the liberty of correcting them here.

    There's also some info on Maeda in David Matsumoto's recent book on Kodokan history & philosophy. The Japanese text renders "Conde Koma" in all katakana, rather than using the kanji for "komaru." "Koma," written in katakana, is Japanese for "coma."

    There's a photo of Maeda in Yokoyama's "Judo Kyohan."

    Steve Cunningham once posted an interesting version of the story about Tomita's loss at that DC reception. He heard the story from his teacher, who was _uchideshi_ to Nagaoka.
    If I recall correctly, Maeda was very ill (food poisoning?) & Tomita was left by himself. When the challenge arose, Tomita accepted, rather than lose face, and lost. Maeda felt responsible, since he was supposed to handle any challenge matches. Believing he'd failed in his duty, and let down the Kodokan, he essentially exiled himself from Japan & became a professional wrestler (which was forbidden by the Kodokan).
    You should contact Cunningham-sensei for the whole story; my recollection may not be wholly accurate.

    Hope this helps....

    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  4. #4
    Arashi Guest

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    Hi Brian.

    Joe sent me your article previously and i think it is very good. I am trying to search for the Carlos Gracie book written in the 40s/50s. There is a picture of Maeda in E.J. Harrison's "The fighting spirit of Japan", first edition. I recently sent Joe some pictures of Maeda a year or two prior to his death, wich, by the way, is surrounded by mistery, some saying it was a liver desease some talking about him have being poisoned by some member of the Brazilian/Japanese group called Shindo Renmei, wich is nonsense because those guys never poisoned any of their victims, they shot them.
    Ganbatte.

    Toni Rodrigues

  5. #5
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Thanks, Brian, Ubaldo, all,
    Joe was having browser problems, so instead of writing to you all separately, I thought I would ask here.

    Brian,
    I'll pass on your remarks concerning Steve's version, as it may be pertinent.

    If any of you know any specifics which are incorrect or need to be added/deleted for a factual response, you can email me or Joe: MarkIV2001@aol.com or jsvinth@juno.com .

    I'll leave this up if you wish to leave any further comments on it. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

    Sincerely,

    Mark


  6. #6
    Yamantaka Guest

    Smile JUDO, MAEDA, BJJ, GJJ

    Originally posted by Arashi
    Hi Brian.
    Joe sent me your article previously and i think it is very good. I am trying to search for the Carlos Gracie book written in the 40s/50s. There is a picture of Maeda in E.J. Harrison's "The fighting spirit of Japan", first edition. I recently sent Joe some pictures of Maeda a year or two prior to his death, wich, by the way, is surrounded by mistery, some saying it was a liver desease some talking about him have being poisoned by some member of the Brazilian/Japanese group called Shindo Renmei, wich is nonsense because those guys never poisoned any of their victims, they shot them.
    Ganbatte.
    Toni Rodrigues
    YAMANTAKA : Hi, Arashi San!
    I'm very interested in the Carlos Gracie book. If you get anything, please let me know!
    About the Shindo Renmei, it was a japanese immigrants' secret society in São Paulo. It is believed that in the forties, it comprised 80% of the colony. They were right-winged and extremely violent. They called the 20% non-adherents by the insulting name of "Dirty hearts" and passed a death sentence on them all. There were 30.000 killings, usually by tanto or (as you very well said) guns. A brazilian writer called Fernando something wrote a very good recent book on this society also called "Corações Sujos"(dirty hearts). It was necessary a big effort of the brazilian government to destroy this society. One of their most famous rituals was walking with bare feet on a sharp katana to prove their loyalty to the emperor and to the Shindo Renmei. Their leader, a high ranked military man, was also involved in legends. He was a master of disguise and he's said to have "grown up", in two impersonations, about 14 centimeters!
    If you can get the book, do it!
    Best regards from your friend
    Yamantaka

  7. #7
    Arashi Guest

    Wink

    Hi Ubaldo.
    When i find the Gracie's book, dont't worry, you will be the first to know. As for the Shindo Renmei thing, the book was written by Fernando Moraes and i recomend it to you, or to anyone that reads portuguese. You will be amazed at what those guys did, refusing to believe in Japan's defeat. For instance, they forged a lot of american magazines like Time and Life, where you could see MacArthur surrendering himself to the emperor, after doing this he supposedely comited sepuku, the new president of the United States, appointed by the emperor was to be Charles Lindberg, the japanese fleet was comming to Brazil to rescue all japanese citizen and there was a lot of real state for sale in conquered land like Australia, all Asia, etc, and it goes on and on. Almost every japanese in Brazil had to believe those freaks and those who refused were killed by the Tokotai, the armed face of the Shindo Renmei. Some say that Maeda was among those who refused to believe this crap and he was supposedelly killed, but as i said before, Tokotai never poisoned anyone, they shot their victimes, sometimes after offering a tanto for those who prefered to comit suicide. Read the book. It is a very interesting portrait of the japanese comunity in those war years in Brazil. Ganbatte.

    Toni Rodrigues

  8. #8
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    Default Re: JUDO, MAEDA, BJJ, GJJ

    Originally posted by YAMANTAKA
    One of their most famous rituals was walking with bare feet on a sharp katana
    This technique is preserved in Danzan-ryu as Shiraha Watari, part of the Kiai-no-maki.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

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    Maeda picked up his moniker in Spain, and according to native Japanese speakers reading Japanese-language biographies, it was a pun -- Conde (usually transliterated Conte in early 20th century English sporting papers) and koma, from komaru, "to be troubled with," especially money. (kane-ni komaru). Conte may be correct, however, as it was first written in Catalan rather than Spanish. Anybody here conversant in Catalan?

    Maeda changed his name from Hideyo to Mitsuyo in the USA. He was also known in English-language media of the early 20th century as Yamato, Conte Koma, Esai, Eisei, Kosei, and Tsuneyo.

    A word of advice. Trust Dennis Helm not at all, and Cunningham only slightly less. So far I've not found any proof that Tomita was ever in Washington DC; his debacle instead seems to have come in New York. Where is a question, though; while West Point is bandied about, the Academy archives have nothing on this at all. (Though they do have a letter from Irving Hancock touting a fellow, probably Higashi, this was dated 1903, I think it was, rather than 1905.) Princeton is sometimes mentioned, but this seems unlikely because George Bothner was the coach at Princeton around that time, and he talked of many things, but not this. Perhaps someone with access to Princeton archives and newspapers could enlighten me?

    FWIW, Tomita left the US via Seattle in October 1910. What he did in the US between April 1905 when he was interviewed by the NY WORLD and October 1910 probably appears in the NY newspapers of the era, but I haven't checked them. If somebody does, please let me know what you find.

    My personal opinion: If Carlos Gracie learned his techniques from Maeda, he must have been one of the quickest studies in creation, as based on chronology, he probably trained with Maeda for a year, maybe two, and then went off to create his own style. (Shades of modern mastery.) Helio on the other hand wrestled professionally for decades, and as long as most opponents have two arms, two legs, and a brain, then my theory is that the techniques developed to overcome them will, over time, begin looking a lot alike. However, as I cannot prove or disprove this theory at this time, I opted to stay with the party line because I didn't have time to do otherwise.

    BTW, despite the post-WWII propaganda spread in order to help get judo into the Olympics, professional wrestling was never banned by the Kodokan, and the links between professional wrestling and European and US judo are enormous. Some examples -- the Seattle and Los Angeles Dojo were home to professional wrestlers into the 1930s, and Kaimon Kudo was active in Southern California judo into the 1980s. (Gene LeBell also visited regularly, I'm told.) In Britain, Yukio Tani WAS a professional wrestler for 20 years before getting graded by Jigoro Kano, and Kawaishi and Koizumi both wrestled professionally in the United States before going to Europe. In the Issei days, a man did what a man had to do to make a living, and in general what the Kodokan objected to was the wrestlers losing for money rather than wrestling for money.

    Finally, there were Japanese Americans who expected Our Navy to rescue them from American despotism until at least 1947. But, as most of the AJAs came from the Hiroshima area, the letters from Auntie finally convinced them that the atom bomb was not US propaganda. You get some feeling of this in the book "The No-No Boy," which is based on a true story. (In real life, the protagonist's mother really did hang herself after learning that Our Navy now resided at the bottom of Truk Lagoon.)

    Due to computer problems, my e-mail has changed, too -- it's now jrsvinth@juno.com or jsvinth@ejmas.com .

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    Mark, sorry I'm jumping in here so late.

    You give me too much credit in the academia department. I would never presume to attempt to correct Joe on anything! I go to him for answers, and I have never been inclined to second-guess his research.

    However, I am not so sure about your parallel evolution theory, Joe. I do acknowledge it as a possibility, though. I tend to believe that Gracie was an adequate fighter to begin with, and that Maeda polished him and provided him with a matrix of judo-technique structure on which to build his already-formidable personal skills. I feel that he learned the techniques from Maeda, and some of the strategies as well, but probably further developed the strategies on his own. I don't get the feeling that he developed the techniques on his own, though.

    So what makes the art of BJJ different from the old style of Judo? Is it the techniques, or is it the individual strategies of the Kodokan as compared to the strategies of Gracie? I think the line is too blurred here to make a distinction.

    I prefer to think of older-style BJJ as a preservation of older-style judo. I've been tied in knots by the best of both schools, and there really isn't any difference between a triangle choke and a sangaku jime.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  11. #11
    Yamantaka Guest

    Angry JUDO, MAEDA, BJJ, GJJ

    Originally posted by Jeff Cook

    I tend to believe that Gracie was an adequate fighter to begin with, and that Maeda polished him and provided him with a matrix of judo-technique structure on which to build his already-formidable personal skills. I feel that he learned the techniques from Maeda, and some of the strategies as well, but probably further developed the strategies on his own. I don't get the feeling that he developed the techniques on his own, though.
    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    YAMANTAKA : Hello, Jeff! I have a question : Did anyone see a tape of the Hélio Gracie x Kimura fight? Does anyone ever saw such a bad fight, poor techniques and confused free for all than that fight? Where were the Gracie's "already formidable personal skills"???
    Best


  12. #12
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    Yes sir, I sure did!

    Gracie had already defeated other noted judoka before the Kimura match (amongst many other challenge matches) - he had been fighting for about 20 years by then. It allegedly was his first defeat. It also must be noted that Gracie was 45 years old, and he was outweighed by 30 kilos.

    Simply put, Kimura's judo was better than Gracies'.

    By the way, do you want to discuss the theory that the fight was a rigged match? Don't forget - they were both professional wrestlers.

    I'm not a Gracie worshipper, but he was a good fighter, and every good fighter runs into a better fighter if he fights long enough. Hell, I just hope I'm still alive when I'm 45!


    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

    [Edited by Jeff Cook on 12-27-2000 at 12:06 PM]

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    Hello all, it's been a while.

    While the above seems pretty accurate, (though BJJ does not necessarily use strikes before takedowns..if any have seen Royce, Rorion, or even Rickson himself, you know they are not strong in that department. In Brazil the added strikes mixed with GJJ is referred to as lutre livre, or vale tudo, etc. A lot of Gracies do have solid stand up skills however.) I would like to address the difference of BJJ and judo as asked above.

    I think the main difference is in the training methods. Judo competition is mainly designed for the perfection of throws. Most judoka spend maybe 75/25 percent ratio on throwing to groundwork. BJJ spends nearly 100% in newaza. Groundwork in a BJJ class is full competitive randori. When we spar, we work to beat the other man. This means that we go at 100%, and do not stop until the other man submits by tapping the mat. When BJJ students spar until they can no longer muster the strength to do it again...they do it one more time, and then another.
    The training is based on very intensified randori, and is portioned at about 45-60% of class everyday.
    When you arrive you prepare to spar with the intent that others will be trying their best to beat you and make you tap.
    While judo offers just as intense randori, I don't feel they do it as often, nor devote as much time to the details of groundfighting. Many of the moves in BJJ are not legal in judo competition, but are required for competing in BJJ competition.

    This does not mean judo is inferior to BJJ, nor is BJJ the answer to martial arts (it is not).
    The Masahiko Kimura's of the world are rare, and even though he is an idol to me, I have not seen many with his skill. He was simply a very good newaza man. He beat Helio Gracie almost to death in that fight. Helio did not have a chance.
    So in that respect, BJJ (still in its infancy) did not stack well against Kimura's judo. The two arts though are very similar. Now however, judo is trained differently.
    The Kodokan, which is an excellent school, and one I am now in contact with, does not really hold the same training style as a legit BJJ academy. The rules simply differ too much between the two. However the two arts are, in my opinion, sister arts. So only good things can come from them intermixing.

    Hope this helps.

    Ryu
    Bill King


    Judo Legend, Masahiko Kimura

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    Carlos Gracie was around 19 years old when he studied with Maeda. So far as I know, his younger brother Helio Gracie never trained with Maeda, only Carlos. If so, then Maeda's influence is direct for Carlos, indirect for Helio.

    FWIW, professional wrestling is live theater. Thus matches aren't rigged, they are worked. As late as 1909-1910 there were a couple matches that may have been legitimate sporting contests, but since then? Please.

  15. #15
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi, Bill,
    I wish you would make available, at least the Private Message function, as I wanted to contact you concerning the topic of this thread.

    Jeff,
    I asked for yor imput, as I know your background. I apologize for giving you too much credit. I was attempting to get some input in the original post.

    Let's correct one wrong assumption here. I've been known to randori for hours without stop, and randori can't get much more intense. Thus, I disagree, not with your factual experience, Bill, but there are reasons for the emphasis on nagewaza. First, the founder(s) said, if given the choice, nagewaza was most important, and the other would be, once you are on the ground, it is a different fight. The preference is to remain on one's feet is an easy one; the shimban may be saying "Ippon!" That is, and Jeff will probably back me up here, balance, and practicing to keep it are of paramount importance.

    Now the other assumption. I could never go an nth that long today. Things creak with a mighty kiai of their own now.

    If anyone is interested in loading more than 6,000 Kb, go to the following website and click on "Masahiko Kimura deeating Helio Gracie" and you can watch and listen to about thirty seconds of the match: http://www.judoinfo.com/video.htm

    Remember to empty your cache before and after.

    Mark




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