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Thread: Various sword-ryu lineage chart

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    Default Various sword-ryu lineage chart

    Hey all.

    To start off with the immortal words: "I found something cool while surfin'"

    I found a very interesting "relation"-chart that depicts the relation between the various Iaijutsu and other ryu to each other. I found it on the Deutscher Iaido Bund e_V_ - DIaiB e_V_ - Verein für japanischen Schwertkampf. Its all in german but you can find the PDF-file with the chart here. (its the bottom PDF named "Zeittafel der Schwertschulen")
    This website is all public so I assume there is no problem sharing it.

    I cant comment on the authenticity, but I found the Iaijutsu lineage section to be very interesting and enlightening on how the various (still extant) iaido(jutsu)-ryu are connected and what influences they had on each other. Doesnt look 100% complete but interesting nonetheless. Enjoy!
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Default .

    Wow, that is interesting. There is lots of stuff on this site and the jpeg of the lineage is quite good too.
    Andy Watson

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    The lineage PDF is nice enough, but there are quite a few mistakes compared to other charts I have seen.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

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    Yeah, I'd hate to think that MJER has been supplanted by Omori-Ryu, Toyama-Ryu, & Muso Shinden-Ryu the way the chart indicates!!

    Erik, can you integrate, or at least line up, your MJER lineage chart with this one?
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    I interpret the PDF chart as:

    "Muso shinden-ryu" came from Eishin-ryu (the precise influence is shimomura-ha of eishin-ryu), Omori-ryu and Shin Muso Hayashisaki ryu.

    I know Nakayama Hakudo was from the Shimomura-ha and that he used Omori-ryu when creating his new Muso Shinden-ryu. The Shin Muso Hayashisaki ryu influence I cant recall.

    Is this not a correct lineage for Muso Shinden-ryu?
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Nakayama Hakudo also studied Shindo Munen Ryu.

    Thing is Oe Masamichi had already codified Omori Ryu and Hasegawa Eishin Ryu into MJER using the Tanimura Ha. When he died Nakayama Hakudo brought about MSR AFAIK.

    I think the lineage of MJER and MSR is frankly, in comparison to most other schools a total mess. Best worth finding a good teacher and forgetting about it.

    Anyway the chart is totally wrong in regard to the lineage of some other schools MJER and MSR aside.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

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    Oki doki
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Despite popular belief, the Hoki ryu lineage being connected to Hayashizaki Jinsuke is also most likely wrong. I can't really blame them for the mistake though as most iai related literature connect the two and claim that Katayama Hisayasu was a student of his even though Katayama ryu & Hoki ryu themselves makes no such claims and the historical record points to different roots entirely.

    Best,
    Rennis Buchner
    Rennis Buchner

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    Default Nakayama Hakudo

    Nakayama Hakudo was 18th soke of Shinmura ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and the 7th soke of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu. He would inherit the Yushinkan from Negishi Shingoro 6th soke of Shindo Munen Ryu. He would also recieve Menkyo in Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu from Uchida Ryogyo. Shinmura Ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu originally comprised of Iaijutsu (Omori Ryu, Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, and Shingenobu Ryu), Iai Kumitachi (Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, and Shigenobu Ryu) Yawara and kogusogu (Natsubashi Ryu), bojutsu (Itabashi Ryu), Hyoho (Shingenobu Ryu), and religious practices. Through his experience including Mokuroku in Muraku Ryu, Mokuroku in Yamaguchi ha Itto Ryu, and the vast iai curriculum of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu would reform the curriculum to Shinmuto Ryu-Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu (this is the name given by Nakayama Hakudo to the Yushinkan, the kanji for muso is the same as muso Jikeden Eishin Ryu, also all the densho written by Nakayama Hakudo and Hosokawa Sensei contain this kanji. However there is a big difference between Muso Shinden Ryu as practiced Mitsuzuka Takashi, and other teaches connected to the kendo federation. The Yushinkan teaches Iaijutsu, Iai Kumitachi (tachiuchi no kurai, tsumeai no kurai, daishozume, daisho tachizume, and daikendori) and Hyoho (from the 3 documents of Shingenobu Ryu). There might be more to the curriculum however I have some time before Ogawa Sensei will expose me to more, this includes other kuden from Shindo Munen Ryu and Shinto Muso Ryu. Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido as practiced by members of the Kendo Federation mainly practice only the iai portion of the curriculum and maybe the Tachiuchi no Kurai at advanced levels. Which is rather unfortunate. Also the Yushinkan uses traditional licenses not dan rankings as used by the Kendo federations.

    Hope this helps
    Jeffrey Karinja

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    Here is more mentioning of Nakayama Hakudo as recieving a Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso-ryu. I've heard some talk that this is not exactly what he was given by Uchida Ryogoro.

    I mean no disrespect to neither Nakayama Sensei or his students, but are you 100% sure he recieved a Menkyo, did he recieve and pass on the Gokui? Was it not a (sho-mokuroku) license Nakayama Sensei recieved instead of the final complete scroll of transmission (called ''Menjo inka'' in the days of Nakayama) which constitutes a current Menkyo
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Default Menkyo

    I appologise for the post before I have several articles on Nakayama Hakudo given to me by Ogawa Sensei and books I've been collecting over the years, and "Muso Shinden Shigenobu Ryu" by by Kimura Eiju lists him as sho- mokuroku. I am unsure If he learned Gokui from Uchida Ryogoro, however I believe that the Yushinkan teaches Gokui. I am unsure if it is the original or not I have quite some time before I find out. And its is doubtful that someone will want to compare considering that it is one of (if not the most) important kuden in Shinto Muso Ryu. Also we practice only one of the auxilliary arts of Shinto Muso Ryu; Kasumi Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. Again sorry for the error.
    Jeffrey Karinja

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    No worries at all. I have very high opinions of Nakayama Hakudo so its not any sort of smear-campaign from my side.

    Oh, the Kenjutsu part. The way I heard is that besides the Jo-kata, only the "8 tachi and 4 kodachi"-kata are listed in the earliest densho scroll for a Menkyo Kaiden, the other arts came later.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Slightly confused...which of these lineage charts is more correct?

    http://www.diaib.de/pdf/zeitraum.pdf

    http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/home_fs.htm


    One chart shows Shin Muso Hayashizasi Ryu influencing MJER and MSR.

    The other shows Hayashizaki Shin Muso Ryu influencing only MSR.

    I assume SMHR & HSMR and the same. Or not?
    Liam Cognet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Cognet
    Slightly confused...which of these lineage charts is more correct?

    http://www.diaib.de/pdf/zeitraum.pdf

    http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/home_fs.htm
    I've got a question about the chart found at the Kenshin Kai site. Perhaps a separate thread would have been appropriate since this one seems to bo mostly about MSR/MER. But anyway here I go: The chart says:
    Tamiya-ryu => Shin Tamiya-ryu => Mugai-ryu => Hijikata-ryu
    Tamiya-ryu => Jiko-ryu => Muke-ryu + Takahashi ha-ryu
    While this page says:
    Tamiya-ryu => Shin Tamiya-ryu => Jikyo-ryu => Mugai-ryu
    It says that the introduction of the Jikyo-ryu iaijutsu into the Mugai-ryu kenjutsu was done by two brothers from the Takahashi family. The page also state that their teacher, Tagajikyoken Morimasa, was the last soke of the style and did not appoint a successor and that Jikyo-ryu died with him and was absorbed into Mugai-ryu.

    I searched for Hijikata-, Muke- and Takahashi-ha-ryu on google and youtube but didn't find anything. I also checked koryu.com but nothing there either. Have anyone here ever heard about these schools? Do they stil exist today?

    Is Jiko-ryu and Jikyo-ryu just two different ways to write the same kanji in English or is it two different schools?

    There was a splintering of Mugai-ryu when Takahashi Kyutaro Koun appointed Nakagawa Shiryo Shinichi as his successor. Takahashi's family did not approve and his grandson decided to continue under the name Mugairyu iaijutsu while Nakagawa-soke used Mugairyu Iaihyodo. Perhaps the author of the chart is referring to the Takahashi family branch of Mugai-ryu when he wrote 'Takahashi-ha Jiko-ryu'. What do you think?
    Last edited by Rasmus; 8th August 2007 at 10:07.
    Andreas Rasmussen

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    Mugairyu was splintered from it's very founding in 1693, as the founder sent his two sons to different parts of Japan, whilst he remained in Tokyo.
    Sadly, lineages almost never look cleanly like one line -- every menkyo kaiden can do what he wants, and the lineage really depends on who does the looking back; who you include/exclude, etc.
    So, they're all wrong? They're all right? There are very, VERY few arts with transmission from only one-to-one, making the lineage a single line and really easy to follow.
    Everything else is just like in real life; messy, political, ever-changing.
    And yes, jikyo-ryu and jiko-ryu are probably referring to the same thing.
    And BTW, never heard of Hijikata-ryu and I don't know ANY legit ryuha that were started by anyone with Menkyokaiden in any of the recognized Mugai lines. Many ha, but no new ryu as far as I know.
    But take that with a grain of salt, from one guy in one lineage, so my opinion is decidedly biased!

    Regards,

    r e n

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