Book of Five Rings

[Quilow]

I've been thiking of reading the Book of Five Rings, but I would like to know if it is worth my time first. I've heard from some people that it is ok and from others that it is pretty good and yet others that it is boring. I want to know if it is a good source for Japanese Martial Arts.

[darkwind]

There are many different translations and as many applications for each, strategy, history, philosophy etc. There's one out that's a translation for martial artists I'd pick up that one.

If you're expecting it to teach you how to fight like Musashi you're going to be sadly dissappointed but it gives a good view of the Five Rings and how they relate to martial arts Earth,Water,Fire, Wind and Nothingness. And there are a few practical points that he states that many of us would think are common sense but to aint.

D. Newton

[Tony Peters]

Don't waste your money on Steve Kaufman's "Book of Five rings" It isn't worth the paper it's written on It isn't a Translation it's a poor interpretation of other peoples traanslations. Visit Kim Taylor's website...or EJMAS and check out their translation. That will be head and shoulders above anything that Kaufman has to offer

[hyaku]

Miyamoto's book of the five elements is perhaps unique in the fact that the book has preceded the introduction of the sword style in the West. The headmaster of the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is indeed surprised at its popularity which is indeed due to Victor Harris's (translator) explanation of its use in other fields such as business etc. He said to me some years ago, "Reading Miyamoto was like Kiri Kaeshi in Kendo. 100.000 times is not enough".

Before you buy it you might want to read an explanation of how to understand it.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

Hyakutake Colin

Hyoho Niten Ichiryu - Fukuma/Kokura

[Gil Gillespie]

Quilow, DO IT. Do it many times. But along with darkwind beware Kaufman's version. Calling it "the version for martial artists" is a scam. Thanks, Tony, your headsup was a hyooooj 10-4 on that one. I think the Victor Harris translation is best. Thomas Cleary's is all the rage now but as I said somewhere now buried in the layers of this website he made some blatant changes in Musashi's Japanese that as a translater he had no right to do. He may have translated 3 dozen classics in Japanese and Chinese but he owes his readers translations, not re-interpretations.

The long lasting worth of "Go Rin No Sho" is its poetry. That's why it is applicable to so many disparate professions and why it continues to reveal over years of rereadings. I would encourage Quilow to ask why some consider this work boring & to carfully consider the source(s).

[Blues]

Before you spend dollars (or any other currency) on the actual book, you could read it (the Victor Harris translation) online or get a printer-friendly version at my site. It's pretty much a secure purchase, though. I couldn't possibly think of a reason not to buy it.

The URL is linked in my signature below.

[Goon Jhuen Weng]

I personally didn't find Kaufman's version that bad, but I would say that his claim that his version is for the martial arts and not like the rest which are for business studies is a little nonsensical as his interpretations do not address how it is different and he makes no attempt to break into any new insights. However, it is an ok introduction to the Book of 5 rings for the beginning martial artist. The more experienced Budoka would do a lot better with the Cleary and Harris versions though.

[Walker]

Hyakutake,
Can you tell us how the 35 Articles fits in with the Five Spheres and how it is regarded by the ryu? Is there any chance of posting a translation at your site?
What does the ryu think of the current translations available in English?

[The Piranah]

you can link to and read the Book Of Five Rings on the internet at www.samurai.com

[Joseph Svinth]

As with any translation, you need to read a bunch of them *plus* the discussions to fully appreciate the nuances.

For online background, see http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Niten.htm , http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword , http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Court...553/fhead.html , http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_musashi.htm , http://www.shinkendo.com/musashi.html , and http://ejmas.com/nitenhist.html

See also G. Cameron Hurst III, "Samurai on Wall Street: Miyamoto Musashi and the Search for Success," UFSI Reports, 44 (1982); reprinted at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm

For translations, there are:

Translated from the Japanese by Thomas Cleary (Boston: Shambhala, 1993) (RECOMMENDED, if also read with Cleary’s book on the Japanese art of war)

Translated from the Japanese by Victor Harris (Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press, 1974); (RECOMMENDED, despite some factual errors in the introduction -- see http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/bookreviews.koryuken.htm for details. Unauthorized online versions appear at http://www.samurai.com/5rings , http://www.hut.fi/~renko/gorinnosho.html , http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Orac...introfive.html , etc.; authorized audio tapes copies are also available.)

Interpreted from the English by Steve Kaufman (Rutland, VT: Charles E. Tuttle, 1994) (NOT RECOMMENDED, as it is a very free interpretation)

Translated from the Japanese by Nihon Services Corporation (New York: Bantam Books, 1983) (RECOMMENDED; for some extracts, see http://www.musespace.com/notes/5rings/welcome.html )

[Joseph Svinth]

Doug --

Did you see the translation by John Stevens of the Self-Precepts and Nine Articles at http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_stevens_0601.htm ?

[Walker]

No, I hadn’t. Thanks. I am familiar with the precepts, but the page is a nice listing.

Musashi / Franklin - one in the same??? Inquiring minds want to know

BTW I get comments on your t-shirt whenever I wear it. Hope you had a good time yesterday. One step closer....

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I should mention that the essay that Joe-san put up of mine is in a pretty raw and unorganized form right now. I had hoped to finish it some time ago, but have not had enough time.

Links to the article from my library page have been removed, but the essay is still online for the time being. Please view this essay as a big work in progress for the time being.

Though, the list of book translations and links at the bottom are finished.

Regards,

[John Lindsey]

As for Mr. Kaufman, he was once a member here. In fact, he was our first "spotlight on budo" guest. Things turned rather ugly during it, and he sent me the following email:

John,

You may post the following if you wish.

When I contacted you it was for the specific reason that I might share my
knowledge of the martial arts that I have experienced in at least 40 years
of my life. While I can appreciate the acceptance or rejection of my ideas,
I find it very annoying to have to deal with pseudo-intellectuals,
regardless of their age, that have limited life experience but subscribe to
the idea that anything based on creativity is subject to ridicule. Though I
do not mind being corrected where correction is warranted, the obtuse manner
in which a number of your members have addressed me is unacceptable.

The Martial Artist's Book of Five Rings is acknowledged and accepted
world-wide as being definitive, based on mortal combat actuality - not
historical significance, which in itself is always subject to alleged
verification. It is soon to be released in Japan because my work suggests
that it comes closest to the intentions of Miyamoto Musashi, and this by
Japanese scholars who indeed address me as Hanshi, Kaufman Hanshi, Hanshi
Kaufman, Sensei, etc. It has already been translated into Spanish, French
and Italian and will soon be available in Russian and Chinese.

I hold legitimate rank and am recognized as a founding father of karate in
America, but that aside, I will not brook rudeness or presumption regardless
of supposed positions or situations or educational background. It is
unfortunate that the matter has turned out this way, I would have enjoyed
maintaining the dialog for as long as there was philosophical and
applicability interest.

If you would forward the 'string' to me I will honor my committment and upon
review, I will send autographed copies of the book. Please include your own
mailing address.

Best regards,

Stephen F. Kaufman
Hanshi, 10th. dan
------------------------------------------
My last contact with him was:

Take me off your e-budo forum. Don't bother to send the string. I regard the comments by most of your members as meaningless tripe and boring.You carry on like a bunch of women more interested in what you think is right without knowing what is really happening or the reasons for it.

[Nathan Scott]

Wow, he sounds kind of upset.

If you address yourself as "Hanshi 10th dan" constantly, then most Japanese will probably address you this way since they can see it is important to you, and they wouldn't want to offend you (to your face, at least).

Hanshi 10th dan's ("snake of the dojo") interpretation of "the book of five rings" (not Gorin no Sho, in this case) leaves much to be desired. It would be unfortunate to see it published in other languages, though I suppose Japanese might find it of value on a different level.

I don't see why a publisher doesn't collaborate with someone like Watanabe Ichiro on an English translation. That would be worth reading.

Regards,