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Thread: Sutemiwaza without mats

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    Default Sutemiwaza without mats

    Hello friends,

    What are your thoughts about this:


    www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/sutemiwaza.zip

    (right click and SAVE AS TARGET, this is large file 800k, if an error message comes out like "bandwith exceeded" or something, please wait 10 minutes and try again).

    These are not Judo techniques, but came from a classical Jujutsu style. It's from their middle-level syllabus.

    Any comments and suggestions to improve our terrible performance are welcome!

    Ben
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Wink

    And here I thought classical jujutsu was supposed to be about combatives.

    Intentionally falling down on concrete! What about the possibility of broken glass? Then there is the chance of other unsanitary items on the ground of the skid row locales you most likely will be fighting in - even used hypodermic needles!

    Plus, if the guy's got his buddies with him, going to the ground like that will certainly mean you're toast!!

    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Tuck your chin! For the love of god, without mats... tuck your chin! :-D

    I try to regularly train ukemi on hardwood, concrete etc. It "rounds the edges", so to speak. Really takes the hardstuff off your falls and smooths them out a bit. Also, you learn a few nice tricks (like keeping your fingers pulled back slightly to keep the tips from breaking blood vessels... ouch).

    But as Kit said, where is the broken glass, hypodermic needles, anti-personal landmines and the like?

    Toughen it up!

    - Chris McGaw

    Oh the things we do in the name of improvement. May we all have kind boards of sanity review.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No1'sShowMonkey
    Oh the things we do in the name of improvement. May we all have kind boards of sanity review.
    but but but... they said we have to be insane to learn traditional martial arts
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    These techniques look very much like the classical judo kata that Kano used. It would have come from one of the ju jutsu styles he studied.

    The techniques are not being done at any level of speed and many of the falls are rolling falls. Falling on concrete is not fun and as you say sacrifice techniques are not for multiple attackers. Mind you the other attackers will think twice if they see a mate slammed into the ground, you just have to make sure that you are up awfully FAST.

    We have a number of sacrifice throws in the Tsutsumi Ryu grades with most in the dan grades.
    Greg Palmer

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    out of curiousity is this Genbukan or what Koryu ju jitsu is this?
    jo biggs

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo biggs
    out of curiousity is this Genbukan or what Koryu ju jitsu is this?
    jo biggs
    Check your PM
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keikai
    These techniques look very much like the classical judo kata that Kano used. It would have come from one of the ju jutsu styles he studied.
    Yep, there are similarities, though they're coming from different branches of Jujutsu that Kano sensei studied.

    The techniques are not being done at any level of speed and many of the falls are rolling falls.
    Off course, for safety reasons

    Falling on concrete is not fun and as you say sacrifice techniques are not for multiple attackers. Mind you the other attackers will think twice if they see a mate slammed into the ground, you just have to make sure that you are up awfully FAST.
    That is very true, that's why we immediately roll and assume the kneeling stance as soon as we execute the throw.

    We have a number of sacrifice throws in the Tsutsumi Ryu grades with most in the dan grades.
    Would love to see them. Are those the same with what Mr. Prayitno are teaching?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    I'm not sure what Mr Prayitno is teaching but I would be surprised. Mr Prayitno trained in Perth many years before any of us started doing the dan grades. I don't believe he would have seen many of the techniques but I cannot be certain of this. Only Mr Prayitno will be able to so for sure.
    Greg Palmer

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    If often argue with people over the merit of sutemiwaza (I've probably argued with Kit about it before!), all the comments relating to the ground being a bad place to be in real combatives are correct, you don't want to go there! But, if you're going anyway, isn't it nice to take your attacker with you, especially if you can make sure he hits the ground harder than you, and usually you make him lead with his head!

    I see sutemiwaza as a changing technique, he has off-balanced you, it may even be that he has thrown you, but it's not perfect and he gives you room to position yourself, as you break your fall, you are off-balancing him and his arc to the ground is much shorter, he's not expecting it, splat.

    Most of the rolling falls you see from sutemiwaza are there purely because we are being nice to our partner, the actual technique (to me anyway) should involve you accelerating his head into the ground, and often you do it with his full body weight and your added force behind it.

    Take stomach throw, tomoenage, for example, we train and are taught to stick the foot into the lower abdomen, hold his arms or shoulders and as we roll under him, push with the leg and pull with the arms. In many styles they let go so he can sail away spectacularly, we tend to hold on so we can continue the roll and end up on top. But imagine if you don't push too hard with your leg, once he's moving you push with your arms instead, now he's airbourne, still in your control but he can't tuck his head and roll, his face, or the top of his head contacts with the ground and because of the body weight thing, his neck likely breaks. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

    I don't advocate the use of sutemiwaza as a initial defence, but it is an effective changing technique and does have a place in the jujutsu arsenal, maybe somewhere down the back in the shadows.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    I don't think my post has been read in the spirit it was intended.

    Neil has essentially covered the practicality of sutemi waza.

    What I addressed are, for the astute reader, the very things, in the very language, for which BJJ is criticized for and dismissed.

    The techniques shown, however, are entirely consistent with BJJ techniques. Very similar indeed to a number of things I have learned in that system.

    But when they come from BJJ, they are dismissed. When associated with a traditional martial arts system, though, its seems the utility of being able to perform techniques such as these is recognized.

    Just something I've seen along the way....
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Hawkins
    But imagine if you don't push too hard with your leg, once he's moving you push with your arms instead, now he's airbourne, still in your control but he can't tuck his head and roll, his face, or the top of his head contacts with the ground and because of the body weight thing, his neck likely breaks. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!
    Actually there are techniques such as these.. it's in the Kata from middle level scroll of Koto-ryu Koppojutsu, and also in a Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu Kata called "Yume Makura", we deliberately prevent the Uke to do breakfall and make them fall headfirst, or worse, facefirst..

    I don't advocate the use of sutemiwaza as a initial defence, but it is an effective changing technique and does have a place in the jujutsu arsenal, maybe somewhere down the back in the shadows.

    Regards

    Neil
    Yup, that's why they are in the middle level scroll.. which means that they are secondary in importance. In most Ryuha I learned, the most important techniques are taught first. "Advanced" doesn't mean more effective, Advanced sometimes means "require more skills to perform, thus it is good for training"
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho
    The techniques shown, however, are entirely consistent with BJJ techniques. Very similar indeed to a number of things I have learned in that system.
    As my friend Ivica said "There is nothing new under the sun"..

    But when they come from BJJ, they are dismissed. When associated with a traditional martial arts system, though, its seems the utility of being able to perform techniques such as these is recognized.
    I think many traditionalist, myself included, can see that there are many things in Brazilian Jiujitsu that we recognize as similar to what we have. I personally thinks that BJJ is a version of old-style Japanese Judo (not the current Olympic Judo), and thus it could be considered as a Brazilian version of Japanese Jujutsu as well.

    The problem with some BJJ people is the attitude of some of the practitioners, who dismissed traditional martial arts as "sissy, ineffective stuff" and overpraising BJJ, calling it "the ultimate, most powerful, most effective martial art" due to Royce Gracie's victories in (early) UFC. But that's understandable. Blind fanaticism are to be expected from people who thinks that they discovered the most ultimate superior answer to their deepest innermost problems. Just ask the christian martyrs of 3rd-4th century AD

    But off course, everything is most different these days. MMA guys like Sakuraba Kazushi and Maurice Smith had shown us that even Brazilian BJJ black belts are human, and again proved the fact that no martial art is superior, there is only superior people. The attitudes of BJJ people these days has improved, they are today more humble, more wise and more willing to acknowledge that there are many good martial arts other than BJJ. That's because most of them has joined MMA now, and discover the merits of other systems.

    Anyway, some of us, myself included, learn Japanese Jujutsu not to become UFC fighters or straatjongens (streetfighter). I did it because it's a fun and enlightening way to do in my spare time. So, any debates regarding "effectiveness" tends to bore me.

    Once a student ask "Sensei, can you defeat Mike Tyson?". I said "Sure, I am very sure I can defeat him in an Othello match, just like I am sure he will defeat me in a boxing match..."

    darn.. I am rambling again, too much New Zealand steak.. must remind myself.. I am 75 kg.. overeating is bad..bad..bad... (rambling incoherently while ordering a second plate...)
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Isn't it Ben Haryo himself demonstrating??
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    I do appear in the video, though only for a couple of techniques. Hint: look for the ugliest guy, that's me
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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