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Thread: What style of Jujutsu?

  1. #31
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    Graham,

    the first person must be Alfred Hasemeier, I guess, a chiefinspector from cologne, and, in the 1960ies and 1970ies author of several books about several martial arts as well as Kuatsu, Yoga, and other topics. In 1968 he, together with Vernon C. F. Bell, founded the International Jujitsu Federation-IJJF, not to be confused with Ju Jitsu International Federation-JJIF which was founded later, and originally also was named "International Ju Jitsu Federation-IJJF".

    The second name reminds me on Horst Wolf, a prominent 9th Dan Judo from (former) East Germany, and also author of several books. But I don't think that he was trained in Japan, and as it seems he died before the fall of the Iron Curtain, it is also unlikely (but not impossible) that somebody has learned from him in East Germany as well as from Hasemeier in West Germany. However, as "Wolf" is a common name in countries with German language, maybe a different person is meant.

    Regards,

  2. #32
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    I have to say that this discussion is excellent, and it seems to be confirming my own interpretation of our school's history.

    The book that Greg mentions is based on the Koryu Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu and lists a number of traditional weapons in the curriculumn, but only a handfull of Jujutsu Kata, the lineage in the book does not mention a Maseo Tsutsumi and lists the last Headmaster dying in the 1950's, it does not list a current teacher and we have not been able to track down the author, the address I have for him in the 1970's in Tokyo no longer exists. The search continues...

    Anyway, as I have said a number of times it has always been my belief the Maseo Tsutsumi broke away from the school and became involved with the "Judo Crowd" it makes sense that he developed his own jujutsu system and potentially borrowed a number of techniques from different sources, developed some of his own and used some of the koryu techniques. There are definitely techniques in our style that are koryu based, there are also some that are similar to techniques used within Daito Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu and others.

    That may also account for why our school has always been referred to as Tsutsumi Ryu rather than Hozan Ryu which would be the more correct abbreviation, I had previously thought this was just a western affectation.

    Thank you very much for the information gentlemen.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    In case Erich Rahn did learn Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu (and maybe other styles) it would be interesting to compare his techniques with the old techniques Jan de Jong taught in his early days. There are books by Rahn and probably some very old pupils from Jan de Jong left. It is a chance.

    Now if these techniques correspond then I feel there has been some influence on at least one or two jujutsuteachers in Holland, through the books Erich Rahn published in the 20's and '30's.
    Johan, we haven't only Rahn's books! In 1921 a silent movie , featuring Erich Rahn, was produced under the tiltle "Jiu-Jitsu - Die unsichtbare Waffe" ("Jiu-Jitsu - the invisible weapon"). Ditmar Gdanietz, Rahn's successor has made this film available at DVD for 24,50 + S&H. The Website is at http://www.djjr.de/ (got to: "Erich Rahn DVD" in the menu). Here is the direct link to the relevant page. Now, ain't that good news for anybody interested in the history of Jujutsu in the West?

    Regards,

  4. #34
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    Robert that is absolutely great news!

    From the website it seems to me this is a rare piece of jujutsu history and we are certainly lucky to have something like this available.
    I am going to order it for sure.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  5. #35
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    Robert,

    Thanks for the information on Alfred Hasemeier, thats very useful. Now I can start searching for what it was he taught.
    ____________________________
    Graham Pluck

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Reinberger
    Graham,

    the first person must be Alfred Hasemeier, I guess, a chiefinspector from cologne, and, in the 1960ies and 1970ies author of several books about several martial arts as well as Kuatsu, Yoga, and other topics. In 1968 he, together with Vernon C. F. Bell, founded the International Jujitsu Federation-IJJF, not to be confused with Ju Jitsu International Federation-JJIF which was founded later, and originally also was named "International Ju Jitsu Federation-IJJF".

    ,

    I'm not sure what that organisation is that claims to be the IJJF that Vernon Bell headed. The IJJF still exists and is headed by Terry Wingrove who began training under Vernon Bell in about 1956. It is found here:
    http://www.ijjf.com/
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    I'm not sure what that organisation is that claims to be the IJJF that Vernon Bell headed. The IJJF still exists and is headed by Terry Wingrove who began training under Vernon Bell in about 1956. It is found here:
    http://www.ijjf.com/
    Simon,

    I have no idea, as I only knew the names of the organisations. Now it seems that there was a split after the passing of Mr. Bell. However, I always was under the impression that the IJJF/EJJU was not organised like the typical federations (that means like a "sport association") but rather was registered as company or trade name by Mr. Bell, which would make splits more difficult, but I could be wrong.

    Unfortunately there is not much to find at the link you provided, regarding history, logos, etc., but obviously the same organizations, founded by Mr. Bell and others, seem to be claimed by both parts.

    Regards,

  8. #38
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    Default Ijjf

    I'm not sure how or why the apparent split occurred. I will see Wingrove Sensei on Sunday and if I get chance I will ask him. Follows are his biography and a related obituary of Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten who along with Vernon Bell founded the IJJF.


    TERRY WINGROVE
    Technical Director, KARATE JUTSU INTERNATIONAL
    INTERNATIONAL JUJITSU FEDERATION
    7th Dan Karate (FAJKO, WUKO), 9th Dan Jujitsu (EJJU, IJJF), 3rd Dan Aikido, 3rd Dan Judo

    Terry was born in London on 8th May 1941, his first contact with martial arts was practicing Judo as an 11 year old at the Budokwai in London. By the time he was 16 he came under the influence and teaching of the late Vernon Bell. By the time he was 17 he had enrolled in Vernon Bell's Jujitsu and Karate classes, the first classes in Karate anywhere in UK. Terry's drive to improve his knowledge meant he studied with all the instructors that Vernon Bell invited to the UK including Huang Nam, Tetsugi Murakami both of whom were teaching Yoseikan style Karate. Terry attended the first Aikido course ever held in the UK in 1960 under Tadashi Abe.
    By late 1960 Terry was travelling to Paris to study with Murakami in Henry Plee's Dojo. Also Terry attended classes at Jim Alcheiks - the great French Karate teacher who studied martial arts in Japan in the 1950's and subsequently was killed in Algeria by anti-terrorist police in 1962. By 1963 Terry was an assistant instructor in Karate and Judo in UK. In December 1963 Terry captained the first ever British Karate team in Paris where he and Jimmy Neal were the highest grades in the UK team at 1st Kyu with Vernon Bell as the national coach. Other members of the team included B Hammond, A. Sherry, A Smith.
    In 1965 Vernon Bell invited the JKA to UK and Senseis Kase, Kanezawa, Enoeda and Shirai arrived in the summer of '65. Terry was now 24 and motivated to go to Japan to see for himself and train in Karate, Aikido and Jujitsu. He married in 1965 and went to Cape Town, South Africa following Shirai Sensei who was teaching at Hugh St John Thompson's Dojo. Eventually in 1967 he obtained the necessary work visas and arrived in Japan in August '67. He was employed as a physical education teacher at the Marist International School in Kobe and joined the biggest Karate Dojo in the area which was the Shito-Ryu Dojo of Chojiro Tani and became secretary of the internationl Shukokai organisation training with Kimura and Tani. Tani Sensei was a school and university teacher and very articulate in English and greatly respected as an original student of Mabuni.
    During the mid 60's there was a major and sincere effort to unite all the styles of Karate under the patronage and sponsorship of Japan's richest man Ryoichi Sasakawa. Tani Sensei introduced and recommended Terry to Sasakawa and Terry was appointed to the secretariat of Federation All Japan Karate Organisations (FAJKO) and the World Union of Karate Organisations (WUKO) as the only foreigner working in the organisation of FAJKO and WUKO.
    Terry helped organise the first World Karate Championships in Japan in 1970 and subsequently travelled the world many times as a WUKO staff member. This was the so-called "golden years" of united Karate with the great Masters such as Nakayama, Yamaguchi, Ohtsuka, Iwata, Tani, Mabuni and many others teaching and grading in unison on instructor courses. Terry attended the first and famous all-styles course in 1972 in Chiba, near Tokyo where he was awarded his 5th Dan.
    Terry also studied Jujitsu and Aikido and was invited as a Karate instructor to many countries. Terry's position in the secretariat of FAJKO and WUKO opened many doors for him to study with great Masters in martial arts during his 21 year stay in Japan. Terry was awarded his 7th Dan Kyoshi in 1989, by Masafumi Suzuki 10th Dan and founder of the Seibukan in Kyoto
    Terry's passion is Karate as a martial art not sporting Karate. His research and specialist study of Karate has taken him all over Japan, Okinawa and China. This again was possible as Terry combined his study of martial arts with his business as an Oriental art dealer.
    Terry enjoys teaching and is in constant demand all over the world, where he has built up a following amongst serious students of martial arts. Terry is non-political regarding martial arts and truly enjoys imparting his extensive knowledge to students and teachers of all ages and grades. He REFUSES payment for his teaching saying he teaches because he "wants to", not "because he has to". Terry is always happy to discuss any matters on Karate or martial arts and can be contacted on email : budosensei@budosensei.com or sensei@cyberbudo.com
    or Tel:0770 8888880 also please see the website www.cyberbudo.com



    Prof. Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten 9th Dan Hanshi
    Professor of Psychology, Vienna University and Co-founder of EJJU & IJJF

    On the 4th August, 2006 the remaining founding father of the EJJU, IJJF, Professor Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten Hanshi Kudan passed away in Vienna. Professor Dr. Heribert Czerwenka-Wenkstetten Hanshi Kudan had taught many times in England and was well known as the Martial Arts partner for many years of the late Dr. Vernon Bell. Prof. Wenkstetten conveyed his knowledge and experience acquired in Budo magnanimously. He worked tirelessly in his professional life at Vienna University and was an outstanding authority on college education.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  9. #39
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    Greg and Neil,

    About Masaseo Tsutsumi, have you checked if he was affiliated to the Kodokan? As a teacher or as a dangrade?
    This might give some info on him.

    best,

    Johan Smits

  10. #40
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    The only real information we have has been given by Richard in his post on Higashi. He helped develop Kano ju Jutsu and then broke away.

    de Jong sensei said he moved away because he wanted to preserve his own system of ju jutsu because it had much to offer. I do not believe that he was graded by the Kodokan. I doubt they would have any record of his involvement.
    Greg Palmer

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    About Masaseo Tsutsumi, have you checked if he was affiliated to the Kodokan? As a teacher or as a dangrade? This might give some info on him.
    The only thing I can add to this, is not about Tsutsumi Masao but about Higashi Katsukuma: Somewhere down the road some years ago, I've read somebody's comment, that he had got an information from someone who had searched some old Kodokan-lists, and had found an entry of somebody named Higashi Katsukuma.

    Unfortunately I can't remember who or where it was, and couldn't find this note again, even after some search with different keywords. It might have been on jujutsu-list, in pre E-budo times, but I'm not sure, and this list's web archive interface has "no archive posts currently available". However, while that comment certainly can't be classified as evidence at all, it is the nearest to real "proof" I ever came, regarding that issue.

    At a german forum I found a claim, that Higashi was excluded from the Kodokan (that mean that he have had to be a member beforehand), after the book he wrote together with Hancock was published. But, as no sources were given, this also has to be rated as an indication at the utmost, rather than evidence supplied.

    Greg, which Richard did you mean?

    Regards,

  12. #42
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    There is a chance that if Masao Tsutsumi was someone of importance in the koryu jujutsu world some records of this exist at the Kodokan. You could try and contact the Kodokan or some old-time long term residents of Japan with a connection to the Kodokan. I believe there are some pretty advanced judoka who are researching judo history.
    It might be worth a try.

    Did Tsutsumi-ryu exist before Masao Tsutsumi or was this the name of his system after getting graded in Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu which he (if I am not mistaken) taught the Saito brothers, who taught Jan de Jong, who revised the system but kept using the name?

    best,

    Johan

  13. #43
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    My apologies Robert. It was you that I meant. That mistake just about covers how well my work went last week.
    Last edited by Keikai; 1st April 2007 at 04:13.
    Greg Palmer

  14. #44
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    Tsutsumi Ryu was the shortened name that was used to refer to the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. de Jong did tell me that when he trained they would start the class with a sort of acknowledgement to the history of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. Basically that they were from the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. He said that he had it written down but that was the last I heard of it. It would have to be translated from at least Dutch with Indonesian thrown in and a little Japanese as well i guess. de Jong sensei spoke a number of languages and liked to describe things in different languages to get the best from each.

    I must apologies to Ben for the way this thread has diverged from his question of what style was taught before WW II etc... While it has been very interesting and informative for us it still has not really answered his question. Does anyone know the answer?
    Greg Palmer

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    You are right Greg - sorry Ben, quess I also got a bit carried away.

    Apart from Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu I do not now what style was taught before the War in Indonesia. One other teacher I know of is Mr. Taiji Nakada and then the teacher Mr. Watanabe, Ben gave us a translation here on the forum of a piece he found in an Indonesian book.

    As far as I know there has been no unarmed combat taught to the Dutch army say 1800's - 1900's. Only fencing with the usual weapons, bayonet-fighting and stickfighting (long and short stick). That is it. The KNIL (Royal Dutch Indies Army) was from early on another story. If I recall correctly these were troops which came into existence to specifically fight opposing Indonesian forces (then called rebels - they were probably freedomfighters). They were trained differently and fought differently using nonconventional tactics..
    My father (passed away several years ago) met quite a lot of older KNIL -soldiers when he was in the army. He described them to be as tough as nails, very capable with all regular weapons but especially with the klewang. He told many times of KNIL veterans slicing their klewang through young pisangtrees. Clean through, the top standing ( the tree apparantly intact) until pushed then it fell over. How's that for tameshigiri?
    He did not recall specific unarmed techniques from KNIL-soldiers, which naturally does not mean they didn't train in them.
    My father was taught boxing, judo as unarmed combat - he was specific about this - not jujutsu but judo and bayonetfighting. He saw service in the early '50's

    Back to jujutsu. Nakada has no reference at the Kodokan this means he was not qualified as a Kodokan teacher not even graded (does not appear in their dangraderegister). This could mean he learned and later taught a form of jujutsu older than judo. On the other hand, he writes about things pre-WWII, jujutsuteachers just didn't write about. He must have had some training in judo or in a koryu jujutsuform with a heavy emphasis on randori (the last is something more common than we normally think according to some people).

    It is my quess that pentjak silat would be a logical system to train in for people in the KNIL. On the other hand there was a very large population of Japanese in prewar Indonesia. There is a chance that pentjak silat was taught here in Holland before the war, maybe even in the 1920's.
    This is a whole different topic for research. From memory I think pentjak silat Baru is a style which had quite some influence from Japanese systems.

    One more thing which makes research on things Japanese a bit more difficult is the (understandable) hesitation from the older generations of Indonesians here in Holland to talk about these days.

    Still research goes on.

    best for now,

    Johan Smits

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