Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 48

Thread: Making Training Realistic

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    19
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Making Training Realistic

    I have been a lurker on here for a while, and it seems my questions have finally percolated into one large thread. Reading the recent post on Mr. Svaral's 'Shinken Bujutsu' brought up some interesting questions. Shouldn't we all be looking for ways to make our training more realistic to actual modern combat (whether that be for military, law enforcement, or civilian/self-defense purposes)? What are some training methods that you have seen, or would like to see, to make training closer to life?

    I do not want to rekindle the old randori/no randori argument, but do you think that majority of X-Kan techniques are more dangerous in a randori setting than say, kimora or juji-gatame? I personally don't believe so. Also, has your training changed to combat the rising popularity/threat of MMA and groundfighting styles? If so, then how? As far as I know, the Bujinkan at least does not have any traditional Newaza, though I have seen Hatsumi Sensei perform some groundwork in a few of the quest videos. In your opinion is your X-Kan's groundfighting training adequate for you? If not, do you supplement your X-Kan training with another art? I believe the standard point is true in that the ground is not a good place to be because of weapons, multiple attackers, environment, etc. However, just because it's a bad spot to be in doesn't mean that you can't end up there, and doesn't negate the need to be able to handle that situation.
    Ryan J Pearson


    "why don't you go spam on the koryu boards, they have a great sense of humor..."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    39
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    My own experience and methods. There is nothing wrong with adding more realistic methods to your training I always find that people try to do it before they know the technique. In a previous thread I stated that if you think you are not going to get hit you are crazy. I have been in numerous fights as well as trained lots of police officers in defensive tactics. I was taught the basic form or kata of the technique then I was also taught application of the technique. It takes years to actually make the techniques work for you. This is why I believe the Brazilian ssytem is set up the way it is. They make you pressure test the whole way. Most systems are set up the reverse You have a basic understanding of the technique then as you continue to practice you are able to apply it. If you want a true understanding the best thing to do is to put on a REDMAN SUIT , hard target suit whatever u want to call it. The individual in the suit can just charge you and you can work on whatever technique you want. This works best in a small room where you dont have a lot of room to manuever. In most fights something is in the way you dont have 40 feet of open room to manuever. MMA is always an interesting topic so I personally went and worked out with a few guys. My own personal quest you could say and I found a number of things very interesting. You have to remember when dealing with strictly grapplers there is no striking involved. Much harder to loosen the person up for the technique and a lot of the reason for people loosing faith in why there style doesnt work. If you grapple a grappler you will lose. I lost some and won some but after careful observation I also saw things I could have done but didnt. Hope this help I know it is not a end all answer for realistic training methods but in all reality you need good cardio..increase your stamina. a great understanding of the techniques you are trying to apply and 2ndly know what technique is avaialable to you when that one doesnt work and most of all a desire to win in the situation you are in. In my Police dept we try to emphasize you control the situation from top to bottom. I have trained, spared with KARATE people, BJJ people, JUDO ppl, WING CHUN...Its all the same. You will get hit like I said before....Give more than you recieve and usually it works out for the best. Also most arts dont cover the entire spectrum of martial arts. The KANS have weapons and unarmed combat, which is why I have stayed with it for so long. Few styles have everything I personally was looking for. Some people have wrestling backgrounds and thats why they grapple. Some people like sparring so they prefer a MMA workout. If you want to test yourself in other arenas just realize self defense and sparring are different animals. The dojo we train in has Olympic Class Judo Competitors and Coaches they enjoy watching our JUJUTSU because it is very similar to their Traditional style KATA competitions.

    Greg Weathers
    Fuga Dojo cho
    Last edited by FUGA DOJO; 29th March 2007 at 15:29.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    67
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I believe that kata and randori need to be practiced from the very beginning, side by side. Too much static kata training without randori doesn't build good all-around fighting spirit and technique. You can end up with too many "cute" techniques, while not having tested them in realistic settings, against a non-cooperative uke.

    I do think that people need to understand the distinction between shiai and randori. People get hurt when they are trying to win or not get defeated. When randori partners understand that they are still helping each other to train, things are much safer. A basic tip that I like to have people try is to remind them that there is still an uke and still a tori, only that the roles shift dynamically. When the technique is correct, uke should not try to block it.

    this essay is quite informative: http://www.aikibudo-aikido.com/essay-randori.html
    Michael Hobson

    Mukyudoka

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    349
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oneroundleft
    Also, has your training changed to combat the rising popularity/threat of MMA and groundfighting styles?
    I've begun compensating for this very thing by learning their game.


    Good thread. Let's hope someone doesn't turn it into the "randori Vs no randori" argument you made it quite clear you weren't trying to resurrect.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Boynton Beach, Fl
    Posts
    37
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Another way of making it more realstic is to add multiple attackers to the concept.

    When I teach an E.P. (Executive Protection) course I always have a second attacker in my drills. In my Bujinkan class, I do the same, it adds to what can really happen in a Club environment for example.

    Let's try to keep this thread going...it has excellent potential.
    Henry Infante
    Budo Tenchi Dojo
    World Institute for Security Enhancement

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    99
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Too much static kata training
    This is also something I think one should work on. Making the Kata come to life. WIth this I mean that the Uke as well as Tori should try to put some real focus into the Kata. Ive been working on the basic Gyokko Ryu kata for some time now and the more I practice them, the more I realise they are very difficult to apply if the Uke does not do a good job. Too many times the Uke just sticks his arm or leg out without any intention of doing a proper attack. Probably he is thinking of his turn to do the kata. Working with the Uke side of the Kata and trying to make his attack realistic and "strong" has greatly improved my understanding and also helped remove some small "mistakes" Ive been doing for years now. In the end the kata feel more realistic, looks more realistic to spectators and works much better than before on the Uke. Please try it with for example Koku or Renyo, two simple but at the same time quite complex kata.

    Best Regards / Skuggvarg
    Richard Maier
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo
    Kasuga Dojo Teaser clip

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    This is also something I think one should work on. Making the Kata come to life. WIth this I mean that the Uke as well as Tori should try to put some real focus into the Kata. Ive been working on the basic Gyokko Ryu kata for some time now and the more I practice them, the more I realise they are very difficult to apply if the Uke does not do a good job. Too many times the Uke just sticks his arm or leg out without any intention of doing a proper attack. Probably he is thinking of his turn to do the kata. Working with the Uke side of the Kata and trying to make his attack realistic and "strong" has greatly improved my understanding and also helped remove some small "mistakes" Ive been doing for years now. In the end the kata feel more realistic, looks more realistic to spectators and works much better than before on the Uke. Please try it with for example Koku or Renyo, two simple but at the same time quite complex kata.
    Best Regards / Skuggvarg

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    As a Uke, you have to have real intention behind your attacks. My teacher talks about that all the time. You really need to try and punch, kick or takedown the tori. I mean really go after him and that's whether you go at 100% or 25% speed.

    Too many times I see people being a half-assed uke and that is doing a disservice to the tori.
    Kevin Kerridge

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Abercynon, South Wales
    Posts
    238
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I'm proud of myself that when I was doing aikido, I really put energy into my attack (though we only did technique from off of a grab, but I really tried to grip on), and when I did so, if we were static, I'd grip on for dear life, and ideally, if I was running toward the person, I'd really belt at them. Of course only for higher grades, for the lower I'd walk to give them a chance to work out what they were doing, etc.

    Sadly it's why I left too, only a couple of people (no disrespect to them or the dojo) seemed to grasp that they were doing a martial art, they were there for the exercise, or as a social club, or something.. it was depressing to see an art I adore reduced to going through the motions.

    I think it's every teacher's duty, if the art is indeed intended to be halfway effective in self defence, to point out to students that without intent to make contact, without a little resistance... well it's like cheating on exams to me, yeah, you might get the grade, but what have you learned?

    When I train with people I'm familiar with, most especially one of my friends, I'll go through the move a few times, usually we'll do it two or three times on each side (left and right handed - another thing I'm chuffed with and shouldn't be, not many people I see do both sides, just on the one. It shouldn't be something I have to feel innovative about ) and then we'll add resistance to it. Sometimes we end up freewrestling for a few seconds before we remember where we are and get back on our feet and resume the technique before sensei sees us faffing about

    It's a lot of fun, but I like to think it adds a little realism to it compared to the people who train only on their right hand side, only standing up, only slowly, only going through the motions, and only with compliance.

    Speaking of which, said friend is due to arrive soon, shall stop babbling.

    Gassho
    Dan Gould

    Not yet rated (Rather comfy in the gi now, just waiting to look good in it)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    31
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I think this in an excellent post, and at the heart of what the core concepts of budo are really about - the proper and "realistic" (if I may use such a word) application of hundreds of years of constantly evolved warrior training.

    I'd like to take it a step further. For those who have and continue to train in a reality based environment, applying the concepts of BBT as they are appropriate (san shin, kihon, shime waza, weaponary, etc.) what have you learned you needed to develop further in bridging the gap between kata and real time application?

    To share my thoughts and experience on this, I've spent my training focusing on a sort of LE / BBT hybrid emphasis and here's some of what I've found over the years.

    Legwork:
    Proper movement is essential in an encounter, and for me, the static kamae that we practice so extensively often needs much work in terms of making it effective in a real time scenario. The kamae are still very much present in the adaptations that I have made, but more fluid, closer stances with less switching of the lead leg and much less cross-stepping I have found is essential. (watch any boxer, ufc fighter, pride fighter, etc. - they never change their stance in terms of alternating their preferred lead leg, etc.)

    Real time application:
    Kata are again an excellent way to learn the fundamentals, and when applied correctly (as I have mentioned in prevoius posts) they are devastating. It's long been frustrating to me to watch in seminars when an uke/tori situation occurs halfway decently in slow time, with legs and arms extended and left in suspension only for the tori to destroy the uke. Then there is this look of amazement, as if they've just discovered something fundamental. While this is often the case, I can only imagine if these techniques were executed as quickly and as realistically as they would be in a true encounter, the look on their faces when they realized the true potential for self defense application would be astonishing, I'm sure.

    False confidence:
    Anyone who trains in both real time and kata application knows what I'm talking about here. You've trained extensively in kihon and san shin, only to find that when applied as mentioned above - quickly and realistically - as in a true combat scenario, you're shut down as quickly as you started. Real time training is the only way to defeat this confidence destroyer which goes on to break your spirit, distract you, and ultimately cause you to lose the fight. Things like taking inevitable hits, getting "dirty" and maintaining control in any way possible (shouting, spitting, hair pulling, groin shots, etc.) are often the overlooked areas here. Remember, every altercation has the potential to take your life - strike first, strike quickly, and strike repeatedly. No exceptions when survivial is the primary goal (and it should always be).

    In short, persistence through randori type training is going to give you the confidence over time necessary to relax in such scenarios and move fluidly from one technique to the next.

    Just some thoughts here, hopefull helpful.

    -Brian Minter
    San Diego
    Brian Minter

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    349
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BMinter
    I think this in an excellent post, and at the heart of what the core concepts of budo are really about - the proper and "realistic" (if I may use such a word) application of hundreds of years of constantly evolved warrior training.

    I'd like to take it a step further. For those who have and continue to train in a reality based environment, applying the concepts of BBT as they are appropriate (san shin, kihon, shime waza, weaponary, etc.) what have you learned you needed to develop further in bridging the gap between kata and real time application?

    To share my thoughts and experience on this, I've spent my training focusing on a sort of LE / BBT hybrid emphasis and here's some of what I've found over the years.

    Legwork:
    Proper movement is essential in an encounter, and for me, the static kamae that we practice so extensively often needs much work in terms of making it effective in a real time scenario. The kamae are still very much present in the adaptations that I have made, but more fluid, closer stances with less switching of the lead leg and much less cross-stepping I have found is essential. (watch any boxer, ufc fighter, pride fighter, etc. - they never change their stance in terms of alternating their preferred lead leg, etc.)

    Real time application:
    Kata are again an excellent way to learn the fundamentals, and when applied correctly (as I have mentioned in prevoius posts) they are devastating. It's long been frustrating to me to watch in seminars when an uke/tori situation occurs halfway decently in slow time, with legs and arms extended and left in suspension only for the tori to destroy the uke. Then there is this look of amazement, as if they've just discovered something fundamental. While this is often the case, I can only imagine if these techniques were executed as quickly and as realistically as they would be in a true encounter, the look on their faces when they realized the true potential for self defense application would be astonishing, I'm sure.

    False confidence:
    Anyone who trains in both real time and kata application knows what I'm talking about here. You've trained extensively in kihon and san shin, only to find that when applied as mentioned above - quickly and realistically - as in a true combat scenario, you're shut down as quickly as you started. Real time training is the only way to defeat this confidence destroyer which goes on to break your spirit, distract you, and ultimately cause you to lose the fight. Things like taking inevitable hits, getting "dirty" and maintaining control in any way possible (shouting, spitting, hair pulling, groin shots, etc.) are often the overlooked areas here. Remember, every altercation has the potential to take your life - strike first, strike quickly, and strike repeatedly. No exceptions when survivial is the primary goal (and it should always be).

    In short, persistence through randori type training is going to give you the confidence over time necessary to relax in such scenarios and move fluidly from one technique to the next.

    Just some thoughts here, hopefull helpful.

    -Brian Minter
    San Diego
    I can't really find anything in this post that I disagree with. Well said.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    507
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shindai
    I'm proud of myself that when I was doing aikido, I really put energy into my attack (though we only did technique from off of a grab, but I really tried to grip on), and when I did so, if we were static, I'd grip on for dear life, and ideally, if I was running toward the person, I'd really belt at them.
    This is actually a bit of a pet peeve of mine - so allow me some slack for a moment so I can describe what I mean.

    Virtually all of the "resistance" I get from BJK partners at training events is the kind noted above. Which is non-sense resistance. Let me give you an example:

    As Uke - you should have a GOAL to your resistance: Specifically that you should be TRYING to defeat, kill, maim, destroy your partner (in a nice, controlled manner, of course). As such - gripping a lapel for dear life doesn't accomplish any of the above goals unless you are just trying to see how strong your grip is (which doesn't really kill, maim, or destroy your partner - it just wrinkles his gi).

    Invariably, when I get someone who does this to me... I just stand there... for about a min... not moving. From my perspective - you aren't really doing anything to help your position out - you are just trying to hold on to me as if I am the lifeline keeping you from falling 20 stories. So I stand there. And wait. The second you do SOMETHING to advance your cause - I will react then.

    If someone really wants to do real training - I tend to punch them in the face as they grab my collar - or kick them in the balls - or headbutt them. Because... WHO DOES THAT -- ESPECIALLY without a "Step 2" plan?

    So when you are giving resistance - it should be *USEFUL* resistance -- in other words, resistance that furthers the cause of kicking your !!!. Not resistance to prove you can't get a technique to work on me...

    Anyway - I hope this helps a little with the conversation.

    -Daniel

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Boston, MA USA
    Posts
    704
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Particularly with grabs

    Just to follow-up w/what Mr. Weidman posted, if we consider why we grip, either for the historical context (that is, to throw, take-down or otherwise harm aite, to prevent drawing/employing a weapon or arrest him/her) or modern use (a grab coupled with a strike of some kind) neither is all that useful against a 'ha-ha- I have grasped you!' approach. It seems like a bad training method to respond to non-dangerous attacks with attempts at 'technique'... YMMV.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Abercynon, South Wales
    Posts
    238
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    You raise a fair point, forgive my oversight - for clarification when I refer to gripping on for dear life, I refer to a good solid grab (as opposed to a "I'm gonna cut off your circulation!!), while I typed it I had in mind a wrist grab. By belt at them, I mean I'd move fairly quickly so as to give them something to respond to, and we trained with the threat in mind that the grab (wrist/lapel, anything) was a precursor to a punch.

    That only applies to the medium grade and above, mind, so they would respond before I would have a chance to throw a punch in.

    Can understand why it'd be a pet peeve of yours, though, definitely. There's a lot of macho bullcrap in martial arts, but I only partake in that with one person, and it's mostly for fun.

    PS: Kicking them in the balls = good solid technique Always nice to know something that'll distract someone enough to not chase you for a few seconds
    Dan Gould

    Not yet rated (Rather comfy in the gi now, just waiting to look good in it)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    135
    Likes (received)
    0

    Smile

    May I ask, what the threat is from MMA? The only threat I can come up with is the loss of aggressive thrillseekers from showing up in my training group. Oh darn...they can have them.

    As far as ground fighting goes, if you dont wanna be defending yourself on the ground, then dont. Its that simple. If you dont want to fight standing up, dont. As grapplers study just enough standup to get yourself in an advantageous position and take your opponent to the ground, ideally in a one-on-one situation where you wont be overwhelmed. It only makes perfect sense that the ablilty to manuever upright and deliver strikes is the only chance you have against multiple attackers, unless you think you can get 10 people in a triangle or kimura, or rear naked choke... good luck with that. And what about evasion? When MMA or BJJ teaches a running technique while on the ground then fine, I will be sold!

    Its difficult to be a victim of a double leg takedown when your knee is relocating your attacker's nose, especially while the tears from the eyegouge are blurring his vision and the curb he is eating is affecting his ability to do much of anything.

    Train hard in any art or system or whatever and fight your own fights, if you slip up...live and learn from it. Get what you want from your training, and dont always buy what people are selling. Your training is your own quest, you dont have to fit into somebody elses box as a warrior.
    Last edited by Kikbaq; 7th April 2007 at 09:15.
    Chris S. Aitken
    Somewhere in the Bujinkan

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    507
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kikbaq
    May I ask, what the threat is from MMA? The only threat I can come up with is the loss of aggressive thrillseekers from showing up in my training group.

    ...Its difficult to be a victim of a double leg takedown when your knee is relocating your attacker's nose, especially while the tears from the eyegouge are blurring his vision and the curb he is eating is affecting his ability to do much of anything.
    Wow.

    Just wow.

    Your ignorance is *amazing*.

    "It's always better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt..."

    -Daniel

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •