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Thread: Did Tanemura learn anything from Takamatsu?

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    Default Did Tanemura learn anything from Takamatsu?

    Hello all.

    I find the recent discussion about Tanemura's history in regards to Hatsumi and Takamatsu most interesting.

    There's a question I would like to ask, purely because there seems to be some discrepancy between what was previously published/intimated and what is now being offered as fact.

    In his book 'Ninpo Secrets', Shoto Tanemura claims Takamatsu as his teacher. But, now this letter (http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=789) states that he was only ever a student of Hatsumi, Sato and Kimura.

    If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?

    Can somebody please explain what's going on here?

    Regards to all.

    Joe Jackson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Jackson

    If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?

    Joe Jackson.

    None.

    Tanemura was never a student of Takamatsu Sensei.

    The only contact that the both had together was when Hatsumi Sensei took his students to visit and train one afternoon.

    As far as i know thats it.
    'Saru mo ki kara ochiru.' is a Japanese kotowaza or proverb. 'Even monkeys fall from trees.' or essentially 'Nobody's perfect'


    Gary Brewer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Jackson
    Hello all.

    I find the recent discussion about Tanemura's history in regards to Hatsumi and Takamatsu most interesting.

    There's a question I would like to ask, purely because there seems to be some discrepancy between what was previously published/intimated and what is now being offered as fact.

    In his book 'Ninpo Secrets', Shoto Tanemura claims Takamatsu as his teacher. But, now this letter (http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=789) states that he was only ever a student of Hatsumi, Sato and Kimura.

    If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?

    Can somebody please explain what's going on here?

    Regards to all.

    Joe Jackson.
    For years people have been trying to make it seem that Tanemura Sensei has falsly claimed that Takamatsu Sensei was his teacher. The implication is that Tanemura Sensei tried to make it seem that HE was Takamatsu's student along with hatsumi etc..

    The TRUTH is that Tanemura Sensei has always been very honest and open about his relationship with Takamatsu Sensei.

    In Ninpo secrets he dedicates the book to Takamatsu Sensei with the words "to my beloved teacher". It seems that people have used this one dedication to assume that Tanemura Sensei is trying to say that Takamatsu was his teacher and no others were.

    Tanemura Sensei has always acknowledged all of his teachers with respect.

    The book is dedicated to a man that Tanemura Sensei see's as his inspiration in ninpo and who he also did learn from, who was his Sensei "teacher" It is true he met him with hatsumi's students, but also true that the "connection" extended beyond that in the forms of letters and other things...

    He see's the man as a teacher, role model and inspiration and dedicated a book to him. In truth without Takamatsu Ninpo would not have survived to today. He was the source.

    If the book reference was all that existed then that would be one thing. But that is not the case. We have to go along with the book years of writen references and what tanemura Sensei has actually told to people. All of which speaks of the totality of his training.

    There is no attempt at deceit and never was on the part of Tanemura Sensei and the genbukan...

    If people are REALLY so concerned, why not ask Tanemura Sensei DIRECTLTY?

    <shurg...>
    Richard Ray Dojo-Cho
    Rick Ray's Warrior Arts Academy
    Bujinkan Makoto Dojo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakotoDojo

    Tanemura Sensei has always acknowledged all of his teachers with respect.

    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1

    Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.

    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2

    Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, Takamatsu Sensei taught him a much better way to develop an effective defense.

    http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm

    Once one of his teachers taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.

    http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html

    Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
    One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers

    http://www.ninpo.co.uk/

    Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition.

    http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

    Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, still needed a teacher and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.

    http://fugadojo.orgfree.com/pg005.html

    It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.


    http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/engl...r_tanemura.htm

    Some of Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei's teachers :

    • Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
    • Sato Kinbei Sensei
    • Kimura Masaji Sensei
    • Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
    • Kobayashi Masao Sensei
    • Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
    • Seishiro Saito Sensei
    • Nagao Zenyu Sensei
    • Suzuki Sensei


    Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei has done many demonstrations worldwide and taught Ninpo and Ju-Jutsu to FBI agents, policemen, SWAT teams, SAS and other elite-team instructors. He was the first Grandmaster of Ninpo ever who left Japan in 1976 to teach in a Western country (USA - Atlanta). He was also the teacher of the first foreigners (Doron Navon, Stephen Hayes, ...) who came to Japan to learn Ninpo in the seventies.

    http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/engl..._takamatsu.htm

    He was well known in Japan as a Grandmaster of Ju-Jutsu and Bojutsu but many people were surprised by his death to hear that he was a true Ninja Grandmaster (of 9 schools).



    He taught (Takamatsu Sensei)and formed many next generation Grandmasters under which :

    • Kimura Masaharu Sensei

    • Akimoto Fumio Sensei

    • Sato Kinbei Sensei

    • Ueno Takashi Sensei

    • Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei

    • Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei

    • Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei


    http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

    (under profiles Tanemura Shoto)

    It was a very hard time for the young Grandmaster who received his first Menkyo Kaiden in Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu at the age of 20 ! At the age of 15 he started training with Grandmaster Toshitsugu Takamatsu Sensei. He majored in law at Hosei University and at the age of 22 he became a police officer, later an instructor, at Tokyo's Metropolitan Police Academy.



    I could go on googling but to the uninformed its seems Hatsumi Sensei was never his teacher and certainly indicates Takamatsu Sensei role was more invloved than a meeting of one afternoon.

    All this info comes from Genbukan websites.
    'Saru mo ki kara ochiru.' is a Japanese kotowaza or proverb. 'Even monkeys fall from trees.' or essentially 'Nobody's perfect'


    Gary Brewer

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    Quote Originally Posted by saru1968
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1

    Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.
    And? What? Oh because in this paragraph he didn't say the words hatsumi yoshiaki? Oh.. Please... You are reading into it of course..

    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2

    Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, Takamatsu Sensei taught him a much better way to develop an effective defense.

    Again, what is your point? Are you saying Takamatsu Sensei DIDN'T teach Tanemura sensei this? Is tanemura sensei not allowed to mention what Takamatsu sensei taught him? Strange...

    http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm

    Once one of his teachers taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.
    Again, I fail to see your point...

    http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html

    Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
    One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers
    And? What is wrong with that? It is true!

    http://www.ninpo.co.uk/

    Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition.
    I guess this student could have said ONE of... Again a student's site not Soke's and it is not untrue...

    http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

    Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, still needed a teacher and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.
    What about it? It is very clear, first you took it out of context from the article so we don't see that he is talking about why he kept training with hatsumi if he wasn't happy. It was simple, if not hatsumi hen who else, takamatsu had passed so who else? At that time he didn't know about the others. What's the point?

    Look, I can keep going refuting you point by point, but this has already taken up to much of my time...

    I find it almost "creepy" that you would spend so much time and effort to look for things to somehow prove (in your mind) your point in this. It is quit sad really...

    You must be very dis-satisfied with yourself and training to harbor such resentment towards Soke and the genbukan. This is nothing more than the old, feel bad about yourself and try to tear down others.

    I spent my day with my three beautiful girls on a great sunny day, and now we are off to the park! You go ahead and do some more "googling" and feed your fasination... LOL!

    Poor chap...
    Richard Ray Dojo-Cho
    Rick Ray's Warrior Arts Academy
    Bujinkan Makoto Dojo
    Cleveland Ninpo/Ninjutsu
    Makoto Dojo's Youtube Channel

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    Originally posted by Richard Ray:
    I find it almost "creepy" that you would spend so much time and effort to look for things to somehow prove (in your mind) your point in this. It is quit sad really...
    I spent my day with my three beautiful girls on a great sunny day, and now we are off to the park! You go ahead and do some more "googling" and feed your fasination... LOL!

    Poor chap...

    Sad that Gary did some research to support a point?

    Oh, come on, Richard . You practice Ninpo, don’t you? You get dressed up in a costume and indulge in your interest every so often when you could be out frolicking with your kids or helping to save the planet.

    Why not just discuss the subject instead of making personal attacks on people? We may have differences of opinion, but that shouldn’t mean we need to attempt to embarrass each other or reply in a defensive manner when no one has actually attacked anybody.

    Does anyone else have some constructive comments or information regarding this thread?

    Regards,

    Joe Jackson.

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    In regards to some recent posts, I would like to politely make a few comments from my own personal view point:



    If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?>>

    Mr. Hatsumi was training with Takamatsu Sensei, in 1957 and Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi in 1963, only five years difference, Takamatsu Sensei was alive for another 10 years roughly when Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi, although there was only the one highly known about occasion where Mr. Hatsumi took all off the students to visit and train according to Tanemura Sensei there was other instances of communication between he and Takamatsu Sensei in the form of letters, stating, "he would be a great master", also he "should be the nest Soke of Togakure Ryu".

    Obviously these things no doubt left a huge impression on Tanemura Sensei, as well he was training with Mr. Hatsumi with Takamatsu Sensei in the same manner as Takamatsu Sensei taught, in his opinion based off his 10 years of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive, a style of training that he felt changed and dissapeared over the years. According to Tanemura Sensei, when Mr. Hatsumi returned from training with Takamatsu Sensei, he would be used to be experimented on with the training. So I would say, it was not the number of times he trained with Takamatsu Sensei that in my opinion he is stressing, but the style of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive that he wanted to impart thus the comments, "my beloved teacher Takamatsu Sensei", etc. Let me also add, how many other people are Grandmaster of Takamatsu Sensei's line of teachings? when Tanemura Sensei, met Kimura and Sato Sensei, he brought other teachings of Takamatsu Sensei's into the light as well. I am not saying that Takamatsu Sensei did not teach Mr. Hatsumi everything he knew or withheld information, but there were other ryu-ha that were passed on and probably a different perspective or emphasis on the martial arts at those stages of his development as a martial artist.

    The only contact that the both had together was when Hatsumi Sensei took his students to visit and train one afternoon.>>

    Tanemura Sensei's opinion differs in this respect, as in the letters of communication. Let me also say, in traditional martial arts, it would have been very rude of Tanemura Sensei at that time to try and go around his teacher, Mr. Hatsumi and initiate some form of communication, the communication came from Takamatsu Sensei, according to Tanemura Sensei

    In closing I would say that whoever your teacher is, is your teacher, and arguements, such as my dad can beat up your dad really only result in futility and victory in the mind only, it will not make your Ninpo any better. For me Tanemura Sensei is my teacher and I am proud and honored to be a part of his lineage, as well as Takamatsu Sensei, but I never knew Takamatsu Sensei and good chance that Takamatsu Sensei would have never accepted foreigners as students. If you follow Mr. Hatsumi, or Mr. Manaka, or Tanemura Sensei, we must all be thankful that we are even able to train in tis art, and glean more similarities than differences when our paths cross.
    Last edited by Jeffery Brian Hodges; 11th May 2007 at 01:25.
    Brian Hodges
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    Makoto Dojo posted in relation to points made by Saru 1968

    I find it almost "creepy" that you would spend so much time and effort to look for things to somehow prove (in your mind) your point in this. It is quit sad really...
    Quite agree.

    You must be very dis-satisfied with yourself and training to harbor such resentment towards Soke and the genbukan.
    Oh its not just the Genbukan.

    Brian Jeffrey Hodges posted
    Obviously these things no doubt left a huge impression on Tanemura Sensei, as well he was training with Mr. Hatsumi with Takamatsu Sensei in the same manner as Takamatsu Sensei taught, in his opinion based off his 10 years of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive, a style of training that he felt changed and dissapeared over the years. According to Tanemura Sensei, when Mr. Hatsumi returned from training with Takamatsu Sensei, he would be used to be experimented on with the training.
    In a post on the other thread i mentioned that Tanemura made a much bigger thing about training with Takamatsu. I remember him telling how he was used as a rag doll for training, and believe if i remember correctly that Mr Tanemura had gone along a fewtimes to be uke for Hatsumi whilst he took instruction from Takamatsu.

    I think we should also remember that on the Takamatsu DVD there are more than just Hatsumi Sensei training.

    Gary Arthur

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Jackson

    Sad that Gary did some research to support a point?

    Oh, come on, Richard . You practice Ninpo, don’t you? You get dressed up in a costume and indulge in your interest every so often when you could be out frolicking with your kids or helping to save the planet.

    Why not just discuss the subject instead of making personal attacks on people? We may have differences of opinion, but that shouldn’t mean we need to attempt to embarrass each other or reply in a defensive manner when no one has actually attacked anybody.

    Does anyone else have some constructive comments or information regarding this thread?

    Regards,

    Joe Jackson.

    I have no issue with or harbour a grudge against Tanemura, never met the guy i just googled and presented what the information 'read' like to me.


    Gary Arthur said in the other thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur

    However having said all that, I believe that in the early days (I joined in about 1988/9) Mr Tanemura did make a much bigger thing about his training with Mr Takamatsu. Sorry you can dispute that but I was there.


    Quote:
    Also I have heard MANY times some people claiming that Tanemura Sensei never acknowledges Hatsumi. Maybe it was different for you.



    Sorry but prior to this time when the statement has appeared there was virtually no reference to Dr Hatsumi on the website, or in his books. Mr Tanemura spent what 20-30 years training with Hatsumi sensei and was given Menkyo Kaiden. So why is he not in the Masters section of the website.

    But of course I think I can see why it might be prudent not to do that.




    Gary Arthur

    So I(capital) find it strange that after that length of time not mentioning the teacher who you had spent that amount of time with.

    I don't see the need to get so bent out of shape, all the sources are there to read, draw your own conclusions.

    Nowhere in my post did i insult you Richard, so i would appreciate you don't either. Just remember if the information was not there i could not have referenced to it.
    'Saru mo ki kara ochiru.' is a Japanese kotowaza or proverb. 'Even monkeys fall from trees.' or essentially 'Nobody's perfect'


    Gary Brewer

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    From what I know.. (and my memory are rusty)..

    Most of the times, if you are studying in an organization, you are theoretically a student of the highest teacher on that organization.

    For example, when GM. Otsuka (Wado-ryu) were alive, all Wado-ryu students were considered as his students, even though not all of them train everyday with the Master himself. Some did the bulk of their training under GM. Otsuka's senior students, and their direct training with the Master were limited only at Gasshuku's, or maybe only a few days during visits to the Hombu etc.

    And yet, they were all considered as students of the Master, and their Dan certificates were signed by him.

    Now if we follow the same logic, all of Hatsumi sensei's students which trained with him while GM. Takamatsu were still alive, can be considered as
    "students of Takamatsu sensei", even though the bulk of their training were with Hatsumi sensei.

    Off course, opinions may vary. FWIW and YMMV.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    sorry wrong thread, am i a dum !!! or what!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatsukan
    sorry wrong thread, am i a dum !!! or what!!!
    Well, on the basis of your post, we don't know. We'll have to wait till you post again.

    When you do so, please add your real name in full. You agreed to do this when you became a member of this forum.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    From what I know.. (and my memory are rusty)..

    Most of the times, if you are studying in an organization, you are theoretically a student of the highest teacher on that organization.

    For example, when GM. Otsuka (Wado-ryu) were alive, all Wado-ryu students were considered as his students, even though not all of them train everyday with the Master himself. Some did the bulk of their training under GM. Otsuka's senior students, and their direct training with the Master were limited only at Gasshuku's, or maybe only a few days during visits to the Hombu etc.

    And yet, they were all considered as students of the Master, and their Dan certificates were signed by him.

    Now if we follow the same logic, all of Hatsumi sensei's students which trained with him while GM. Takamatsu were still alive, can be considered as
    "students of Takamatsu sensei", even though the bulk of their training were with Hatsumi sensei.

    Off course, opinions may vary. FWIW and YMMV.
    i have also heard of that premise from japanese friends.

    let me ask a hypothetical question:

    based on the statement above, what if hatsumi-sensei never met takamatsu-sensei? he just stayed with ueno-sensei, is he considered a student of takamatsu-sensei?

    i also ask these questions:

    1. when did hatsumi-sensei inherit the 9 ryu? did tanemura-sensei had a menkyo while hatsumi-sensei wasn't soke? or did tanemura-sensei get a menkyo from hatsumi as soke?

    2. when did sato-sensei and kimura-sensei gave certification to tanemura-sensei? was it when takamatsu-sensei is still alive?
    Griff Lockfield

    "To bear what you think you cannot bear is truly to bear"
    - BUSHIDO by Inazo Nitobe

  14. #14

    Cool The whole thing in one quick response.

    What a waste of time. Think of all the training you could have done instead of this. Go, train, and stop with the old lady antics.


    Nevin Z. Broz

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    Quote Originally Posted by nindja
    What a waste of time. Think of all the training you could have done instead of this. Go, train, and stop with the old lady antics.


    Nevin Z. Broz
    So go train then.

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