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Thread: Kata Bunkai

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X View Post

    It's not about the technique, it's how you use it that differenciates boxers. my emphasis, RV)
    Same in karate, only we tend to think of systems instead if individuals.

    All Ryuha have the same blocks and punches, just different ideas of how
    to deploy them. You also have to keep in mind that originally, a "Master"
    would only have a few students. Therfore he could keep track of individual
    progress and changes.
    I concur so wholeheartedly with your analysis, that it almost hurts.
    Remi Vredeveldt

    "Hysterical knowledge is often mistaken for historical knowledge"

    Boni enim duces non aperto proelio, in quo est commune periculum, sed ex occulto semper adtemptant Vegetius Liber III, 9:5

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    You have somany differnt prople participating each one may have a unique style but for the most part these is still really only one proper way to do each technique.
    Don't you actually mean a unique interpretation because of their physiology, mind set etc ?

    I don't want to oversimplify it but, it seems like all these boxers have no problem conforming to the way things are done.
    I agree and by the same token karate students should have no problem conforming to the way things are done.


    Ray said:
    A good karate coach does the same. Is coach and sensei the same thing?
    That's the difference between sport karate and real karate. A sensei is the one who has been down the road before and specifically teaches The Way, which is not only a physical path but a spiritual path. Coaches do not do that, it is their job (in any sport) to bring the athlete to peak performance.
    The issue of whether they have become a better person is neither here nor there. You only have to look at the number of world class athletes that take performance enhance drugs to see that.

    The big advantage martial arts has over sport is that it is a lifelong pursuit (golfers, please don't respond because chasing little white balls around a field is just an alternative to a good long walk).

    And because it is a life long pursuit, not a hobby, there is much depth to be learned, unlimited nuances and so forth and which only come with advancement, which brings me right back to the original question again and my surprise at some of the responses.

    osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevorg View Post
    Don't you actually mean a unique interpretation because of their physiology, mind set etc ?
    No, not interpetation so much, because all their goals are the same...
    to knock the other guy out.
    The jab was a jab the cross was a cross, etc.

    Its not like interpeting a midle block as a block or a strike or a lock or throw.

    I see more as difference in strategy like Nyuck3X said:
    Look at Fraiser, Tyson and Ali. All had the same arsenal as
    the other but the delivery was different. Fraiser fought in close.
    He tried to tie you up and wear you down with body punches.
    Tyson was peek-a-boo fighter. He would hide behind his gloves
    and use his hooks to lay you out. Ali was a stand-up fighter.
    He controlled the distance. He had great hand speed and used it to
    his advantage.
    I mean there is no varying interpetations as to what the techniques are.
    There are different strategies, but for the most part things like power
    and delivery of the technique are the same.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    There are different strategies, but for the most part things like power and delivery of the technique are the same.
    Perhaps these might be of interest to you ?
    http://www.science.ca/askascientist/...on.php?qID=821

    http://academic.reed.edu/physics/cou...sicskarate.pdf

    http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewconte..._form=Continue


    I don't believe it can be simplified saying a hook is a hook, an uppercut an uppercut. Sure, these techniques are in karate but then so is uraken, which is not allowed in boxing.

    osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  5. #515
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    Thanks for the links.
    I will look over the pdf's when I have more time.
    Probably at work .

    I would like to see those tests donw with some of the old timers like
    Nakazato, Motobu, Nakata, Shimabuku etc. to see how they stack up to
    the karate-ka they used for their tests.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevorg View Post
    Perhaps these might be of interest to you ?
    http://www.science.ca/askascientist/...on.php?qID=821
    "The difference between a boxer's punch and a karateka's punch is that the boxer is trying to maximize the transfer of momentum to his opponent. So the boxer will put more of his body weight behind the punch and follow through, whereas the karateka will snap back his fist after impact. The energy of the karate punch is delivered more quickly, and is more likely to do local damage, rather than knocking the opponent backwards."

    I agree with this statement to some degree. Boxer or karate man, those who don't snap tend to be able to execute with more momentum and weight transfer, even if their punch has more "push" dynamics than penetration. For us, we like to maximize the weight transfer by not snapping, but transfer the energy quickly to avoid "pushing" with a very fast acceleration into the opponent during impact to gain penetration.

    I've yet to see a physics-based article that takes into account most of the dynamics of punching, but it is always interesting to see how science is applied to the application of martial force from varying perspectives.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin Ryuu View Post
    I agree with this statement to some degree. Boxer or karate man, those who don't snap tend to be able to execute with more momentum and weight transfer, even if their punch has more "push" dynamics than penetration. For us, we like to maximize the weight transfer by not snapping, but transfer the energy quickly to avoid "pushing" with a very fast acceleration into the opponent during impact to gain penetration.
    John,
    So would you classify the delivery more like a "shove".
    I mean make contact then a forceful "push" with a sudden stop.

    Just so were on the same page I'm defining these terms as:
    Push - To apply pressure against for the purpose of moving.
    Shove - A push with an abrupt and violent begining and a sudden stop, started after contact is made.
    Snap - When a technique is suddenly stopped by the person throwing it, after making contact.

    Thanks
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    John,
    So would you classify the delivery more like a "shove".
    I mean make contact then a forceful "push" with a sudden stop.

    Just so were on the same page I'm defining these terms as:
    Push - To apply pressure against for the purpose of moving.
    Shove - A push with an abrupt and violent begining and a sudden stop, started after contact is made.
    Snap - When a technique is suddenly stopped by the person throwing it, after making contact.

    Thanks
    Well, yes and no, but in terms of acceleration timing, shoving in this sense wouldn't be a bad analogy. The tight fist smoothly floats out to make contact with the body and the acceleration occurs through impact.

    In using these terms, however, even if all the above were true, we would still consider it "pushing" if there was no kime inside the target. Simply delaying the acceleration until you impact and then extending your arm through the target doesn't guarantee penetration. In fact, that is one of the most common forms of what we call "pushing". Instead of just minimizing the time it takes for the full acceleration to take place inside the target, body weight transfer has to drop inside the target rather than just shoving through very quickly and stopping.

    That's my take on how we look at it, anyway.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X View Post
    It's not about the technique, it's how you use it that differenciates boxers. Same in karate, only we tend to think of systems instead if individuals.

    All Ryuha have the same blocks and punches, just different ideas of how
    to deploy them. You also have to keep in mind that originally, a "Master"
    would only have a few students. Therfore he could keep track of individual
    progress and changes.
    I completely agree with this. So, if you take the view that what your sensei shows you should not be changed and at the same time accept the mathematical equation of the dynamics of a punch (or block for that matter) and the differences in everyone's physical/mental make up then the only way a technique will change is simply due to this last point.

    Assuming, therefore, that the student acknowledges what he has been shown is correct as has been passed down then the fact that his physicality may have slightly altered the delivery should not affect the way he, in turn, when he matures and masters the technique, passes that technique on.

    This would be entirely different to interpreting the technique to what the student feels better suits him or just a new way of doing things, in which instance the original technique gets diluted and eventually lost.

    Osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

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    Looks like this thread has run its course, and as there is hardly anything happening on e-budo these days I shall be taking a sabbatical for a while to refresh myself.

    Great speaking to you guys, thanks for an uplifting discussion.

    Osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  11. #521
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    Just dropping by and couldnt help but notice that even though no one has contributed to this thread since my last post the views have now reached 19,000. What might be called a 'long tail' thread.

    Osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBadger View Post
    I am interested in which styles/schools teach bunkai with their kata. I would love to hear comments on the following questions:

    - Does your style/school teach/require bunkai?
    - If so, is there a one to one relationship between kata movement and bunkai or a one to many relationship?
    - How much variation do you allow from the kata movement?
    - Are students/instructors allowed to devlop alternate bunkai?

    I look forward to your replies.
    Mr. Michaels

    I have not been in this site for a bit. but here goes.
    My Sensei does, as I do, teach the basic Bunkai(practical application) to many of the Kata. There are set Bunkai from the book. Then there is the Oyou ....(alternate practical applications). These are open to interpretations. Many are there but those are like the dealers option in car sales or after market parts ....so-to-speak. We are always given some leeway in development. But usually the Sensei shows us the whys it may not work.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

  13. #523
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    Hello Mr Posselius

    When you say 'from the book', do you mean in the sense 'doing it by the book' ie the proper way, or is it an actual book ?

    Os
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  14. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevorg View Post
    Hello Mr Posselius

    When you say 'from the book', do you mean in the sense 'doing it by the book' ie the proper way, or is it an actual book ?

    Os
    Trevor
    Mr. Gilbert

    Well .... I mean both. In the book that has been re-done by the Go Jyu Kai there are some bunkai ( practical aplications) that are taught for that Kata. These as you said are "by the book". The other bunkai are, in a way, done "by the book" although they are not in the book. What I mean is that these are what most, if not all the teachers teach as the bunkai for those Kata. Now this is done for the Go Jyu Kai. My present Sensei travels to Okinawa quite often and he has shown me the same Kata, using the same bunkai but in a soft application rather than the hard. Also he has shown me the same bunkai but different strike points. More of an Okinawan way. Same motion, different strike point.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

  15. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevorg View Post
    Don't you actually mean a unique interpretation

    That's the difference between sport karate and real karate. A sensei is the one who has been down the road before and specifically teaches The Way, which is not only a physical path but a spiritual path. Coaches do not do that, it is their job (in any sport) to bring the athlete to peak performance.
    Mr. Gilbert

    I now teach Karate at a major university here in Japan. Most if not all university karate clubs in Japan are considered sports clubs. Yes, you are right as the differences between "sports Karate" and "real Karate" .... But you still need to be an athlete of sorts to be good at it. Yes, Karate is a life long persut and there is soooooo much to find and be taught. I try to teach both the sports side as well as the Budou side ...... Life is Karate and Karate is life.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

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