Tsuki ten ichi vs Kon ten ichi

[The Dude]

The new kamoku is coming soon and I was thinking about the different waza and at wich grades they turn up in the current one.

A waza I have always wondered about is Kon ten ichi. To me the difference between Zuki ten ichi and Kon ten ichi is really small. I never had any problem performing Kon ten ichi (as opposed to the trouble I had when first attempting Zuki ten ichi and other waza).

I dont think I´m nearly as talented as Kaiso was so I must be missing something here. What is it specifically that you are supposed to learn with Kon ten ichi?

[ken70]

In tsuki ten ichi, Kogeki makes jochu niren zuki, and in kon ten ichi he makes jodan furi zuki and chudan gyaku zuki...
So, Uke makes uwa uke and ren uke (+ jun geri) in tsuki ten ichi, and soto oshi uke and ren uke (+ jun geri) in kon ten ichi.

[stevenm]

Yes the differnce is small, Jodan Jun Zuki or Jodan Furi Zuki, but try blocking a Jodan Jun Zuki with Soto Oshi Uki or a Jodan Furi Zuki with Uwa Uke.

The difference suddenly becomes noticable i.e. a fist in the face.

When you next practice concentrate on your Tai Sabaki and Unpo ho the subtle differences will become apparent

[Steve Williams]

The new kamoku is coming soon and I was thinking about the different waza and at wich grades they turn up in the current one.

A waza I have always wondered about is Kon ten ichi. To me the difference between Zuki ten ichi and Kon ten ichi is really small. I never had any problem performing Kon ten ichi (as opposed to the trouble I had when first attempting Zuki ten ichi and other waza).

I dont think I´m nearly as talented as Kaiso was so I must be missing something here. What is it specifically that you are supposed to learn with Kon ten ichi?

Ah, but you first practiced tsuki ten ichi when you had been training.... what.... 3 months, maybe 6 months??
You first practiced kon ten ichi when you had been training 3 years...... maybe 5 years??

Did you consider that this is the reason you had litle "trouble" with kon ten ichi?
Consider how easy tsuki ten ichi would be if you first encountered it after a few years of practice.....

[Rob Gassin]

I think what Johan is really asking is - why not learn both techniques at the same grade, why is one taught early and the other as a black belt?

To be honest, I have also asked myself the same question. My observation is that the tai sabaki and umpoho are slightly different but otherwise, the techniques are quite similar.

Maybe, the answer is not in the defender's technique but in the attacker's. At kyu levels all hand attacks are either single strike or jo chu, using the same punch with both hands. At dan levels, more attack combinations including: jo - jo, jo(gyaku) - chu (jun), furi zuki - choku zuki are introduced.

Cheers,

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Actually you've pretty much learned Kon Ten Ichi at about (I think, haven't got a Kamoku to hand) 1st kyu when you learn Tenchi Ken Sai Ni Sotai. The only difference is in not performing jun geri but instead doing Jun zuki.

Ah, but you first practiced tsuki ten ichi when you had been training.... what.... 3 months, maybe 6 months??
You first practiced kon ten ichi when you had been training 3 years...... maybe 5 years??

Did you consider that this is the reason you had litle "trouble" with kon ten ichi?
Consider how easy tsuki ten ichi would be if you first encountered it after a few years of practice.....

I can almost see Steve stroking his long white beard as he shows you "all the Heavenwy gworwy"
Paul
Kesshu

[sean dixie]

hmmm....Steve as a Chinese cinema bad guy?.... I can see it yes.

[sean dixie]

Don't forget to place your curser over the pic to see the dodgyest smile in the business.

[satsukikorin]

OK, smarty pantses... For Kon Ten Ichi, the first block is a soto-uke. What's the tai-sabaki? How does your weight start, where does it go for the soto-oshi, and where does it end for douji-uke/keri?

[The Dude]

As Rob Said I think it would be natural to learn both techniqes at he same grade. They have the same difficulty level and it would be pedagogical. But then again maybe its more interesting to learn different techniques for each grade?

The difference of doing soto oshi uke versus uwa uke is clear to me, I think I was more wondering along the lines of tai sabaki. When I do uwa uke I almost always move into kokutsu dachi (except for for example Tai ten ichi) and when I do soto oshi uke I generally move into zenkutsu dachi (as in Furi ten ni). Hmmm, maybe I should experiment a bit with different tai sabaki for Kon ten ichi next training session...

Stevenm, how does your umpo ho differ in the techniques?

[Gary Dolce]

OK, smarty pantses... For Kon Ten Ichi, the first block is a soto-uke. What's the tai-sabaki? How does your weight start, where does it go for the soto-oshi, and where does it end for douji-uke/keri?

For konten 1 the first block is soto oshi uke, not soto uke.

I think the weight shifts to the back leg in both cases - i.e., for the uwa uke in tsukiten 1 and the soto oshi uke in konten 1.

The difference of doing soto oshi uke versus uwa uke is clear to me, I think I was more wondering along the lines of tai sabaki. When I do uwa uke I almost always move into kokutsu dachi (except for for example Tai ten ichi) and when I do soto oshi uke I generally move into zenkutsu dachi (as in Furi ten ni). Hmmm, maybe I should experiment a bit with different tai sabaki for Kon ten ichi next training session...

I guess I don't see either konten 1 or furiten 2 shifting into zenkotsu dachi. If you shift forward on the first block, I don't think you don't have time to shift back for the second strike.

Paul is right that you essentially learn konten 1 when you learn tenchiken 2 sotai. Another example of an oddly placed technique is uchi oshi uke geri, which is in the 3-dan curriculum. But you actually learn uchi oshi uke geri at shodan when you learn furiten 2 (it's the second block and the counter).

So, why not learn konten 1 at the same time as tsukiten 1? While the basic idea of the curriculum is to move up in a stepwise fashion from more basic to more difficult techniques, to some extent the exact placement of techniques is bound to be arbitrary. After all, there are other sometimes conflicting needs - such as the need to balance numbers and types of techniques across the curriculum. My guess is that the creators of the current curriculum wanted to teach the tennoken techniques that work against the most basic combination attacks (jo chu zuki, jo chu keri san renko) first (i.e., up to shodan), and then add most of the attack variations later at 2-dan. Personally, I would move taiten 1 up before shodan and move furiten 2 (a much less likely attack) to 2-dan.

[Ade]

Gassho

Tsuki ten ichi deals with linear attacks where the vector of force is straight towards the opponents face driving them back, so into kokkutso dachi, it is a very simple combination to deal with and suitable for beginners.

Kon ten ichi deals with the far more complicated circular vector of furi tzuki as first attack, from leading hand.

It's a boxer's attack and is very dangerous and very powerful.

In order to "stop" the vector the defender MUST move their body weight forward (as in uwa uke zuki) into the arc of the attack to minimize the mechanical advantage by stopping the swing BEFORE the attacker's fist travels far forward of the line of their shoulders into the maximum power delivery area. If they don't a powerful attacker will sweep their block away like dry leaves and drive them to start to rotate in the direction of the vector creating a very weak body posture to defend from.

But if the defender's block is administered early here it damages the attackers arm through the involuntary nerve response (flinch) to the block and "steals" balance by the muscular disfunction and pain response on the attacker, (the wobble), in the attacker's attempts to regain balance and continue attack the defender has more than ample opportunity to sway back with zenkutsu dachi creating "just too far for you to reach" (mikiri in Japanese I think?) space and luring the attacker to over-reach in their jitsu exposing kyo for explotation by the kick.

Kon ten ichi is therefore far more subtle and complicated to deal with, it is harder to read the attack (and use in randoori) then tsuki ten ichi and, as has been demonstrated by this thread, it's nuances are easily missed.

The key lies in the "offer" kamae of the defender, start with your weight central with a very tall stance and long neck offering the face, rock decisively forward into the first attack causing damage with your block then sucker them in with your apparent retreat swaying away to make them over-extend their second strike into a beautiful trap which you snap shut when they are totally committed forwards, off balance with kyo perfectly exposed for the taking.

It's like a chess move where you expose an apparent chink in your defences and they rush in.

Once you've done it to them once, they won't come again, because they won't be able to, because they'll be broken.

Kesshu

Ade

[Nina]

I learned to make the soto oshi uke from kokotsu-dachi, but two weeks ago, at the german gasshuku I had to feel that I wasn`t able to stop the attack from this position...

[Rob Gassin]

Interesting discussion. In kon ten ichi, I actually perform the soto oshi uke in kokutsu dachi. My umpoho is sideways, along the line of force of the attacker's strike. I contact his wrist late, when his power spent. At the time of impact, my upper arm is horizontal in line with the front of my chest, and my forearm approximately 60 degrees from horizontal. My arm has never collapsed under the force of the attack and neither have I lost balance. I find that the sideways step, takes me away from the line of attack and puts me in a great position for the 2nd block and for the counter.

[ken70]

In tsuki ten ichi, we make kokutsu dachi to uwa uke, that's logical.
But not in kon ten ichi...
The soto oshi uke is in the same direction as the pelvis, isn't it?
Is the position rather neko ashi dachi...?