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Thread: Is Daito-ryu the only style of Aikijujutsu?

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    Default Is Daito-ryu the only style of Aikijujutsu?

    For my purpose of knowing, I was wondering yesterday about the term Aikijujutsu. This term appears in some other schools other than Daito Ryu.

    Excluding evident fakes or fraudolent masters, is there some sort of Aiki system other than the Aiki studied in Daito Ryu?

    For a reference, I was reading Harrison's book about his Japanese experience during pre war period at the Kodokan. There is a chapter in which he met a master of a koryu system (it is not reported what school was)and the master gave a demonstration of some aiki.

    So is there another "aiki way" other than Daito way?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benkei the Monk View Post
    So is there another "aiki way" other than Daito way?
    See http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1202
    Don J. Modesto
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Frome the link above

    "Aiki" is actually an old name for a group of kenjutsu tactics that employed mental inertia, disruption and involuntary reflex to defeat ones opponent. These concepts can be purely applied in taijutsu as aiki no waza (aiki jutsu) although it is a much less decisive tactic in taijutsu than it is in an engagement utilizing edged weapons. In taijutsu, aiki principles are most effectively employed in conjunction with jujutsu waza....hence the name aikijujutsu. At its highest level of execution aikijujutsu is characterized by sophisticated jujutsu waza which employs mental disruption and soft joint locks to throw or immobilize an attacker. Aiki taken even farther in taijutsu becomes the aforementioned aiki no waza (aiki jutsu) which almost totally eschews joint locking in favor of very subtle kuzushi and mental disruption to defeat an attack. Most aiki no waza should be viewed as a study of physical and mental dynamics as opposed to effective self defense. The extreme level of intricacy required for the effective application of aiki no waza make it a risky proposition in an art like taijutsu where even a successfully thrown opponent can recover and attack again. However, aiki jutsu (principles) applied in kenjutsu can be startlingly effective as the momentary kuzushi or mental disruption resulting from the application of "aiki" can be immediately followed by a life ending sword cut.
    So it seems that aiki is more a concept than a school. So you can see aiki as a principle that you can reconduct to many aspects of martial arts. if they are in a jujutsu form and you apply aiki they became aikijujutsu, if kenjutsu you apply aiki in kenjutsu. Aikijutsu is the art of applying aiki in many fields, isn't it? This is a very interesting point of view. in this way Daito ryu, named at very beginning only jujutsu by Takeda Sokaku sensei, is a ryu where aiki is extensively taught, but not the only koryu (as stated for Yanagi ryu aiki bugei as Threadgill sensei stated)

    Do I properly understand ?


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    Yes, that sounds pretty good.
    Takeda didn't invent aiki, he learned it from far older sources. He applied aiki to his art. From what I have read over the years, the concept of aiki goes back to koryu sword/weapons/empty-hand arts, and was passed along, into modern times, in some of the surviving classical jujutsu systems that were once a part of those koryu, as well as some surviving full koryu themselves. And even before the Japanese arts had these skills, there is good reason to believe that they existed in China, and still do today.

    What seems like a rare and mysterious thing to us now, may well have been fairly commonplace at some point in history.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 20th November 2007 at 01:20.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Finny Guest

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    IIRC, isn't "aiki" a term that shows up in several koryu - each interpreting/using the term slightly differently?

    I seem to remember reading something in Dr. Friday's book about Kashima Shinryu using the term, but interpreting it in a different manner than DR. But I could be wrong - just a fuzzy memory.

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    Default Aiki

    Isn't Kito Ryu considered a school of Aikijujutsu?
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finny View Post
    IIRC, isn't "aiki" a term that shows up in several koryu - each interpreting/using the term slightly differently?
    Ellis Amdur has written a bit on this... urgh, I can't seem to find the post I'm thinking of. Here's a post where he talks about "aiki" in Toda-ha Buko-ryu (and more on the same topic, here and here). I also remember him (or maybe it was some else?) discussing a set of "aiki" kata/techniques in one ryu, where the defender simply (physically) mirrored the attacker. But anyway, yeah, it's my understanding that even though the term is old, it didn't necessarily have a universal definition. The popular definition of "aiki" nowadays is clearly derived from Daito-ryu/Aikido.

    BTW, does anyone know if any other koryu actually uses the term "aiki-jutsu" or "aiki-no-waza", other than Daito-ryu/ Yanagi-ryu? I seem to remember that in the wake of Sokaku Takeda, the term aiki came into vogue for a while, but I can't remember where I read that.

    Now, though, even though the term "aiki" has multiple meanings across the spectrum of koryu, the principles behind Daito-ryu/Aikido "aiki" can certainly be found in most fighting systems (world-wide, not just in Japan). But individual systems may not call what they do "aiki"---look at Kuroda Tetsuzan and Russian Systema as current examples of aiki-like systems. Furthermore, Daito-ryu, Aikido, and Yanagi-ryu are the only systems I know of that choose to identify their arts with the use of "aiki", so if someone were to discuss "aiki-jutsu", I would assume they were talking about the aforementioned arts, or a derivative of them.
    --Timothy Kleinert

    Aikido & Qigongs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benkei the Monk View Post
    ....So it seems that aiki is more a concept than a school. So you can see aiki as a principle that you can reconduct to many aspects of martial arts. if they are in a jujutsu form and you apply aiki they became aikijujutsu, if kenjutsu you apply aiki in kenjutsu. Aikijutsu is the art of applying aiki in many fields, isn't it? This is a very interesting point of view. in this way Daito ryu, named at very beginning only jujutsu by Takeda Sokaku sensei, is a ryu where aiki is extensively taught, but not the only koryu (as stated for Yanagi ryu aiki bugei as Threadgill sensei stated)

    Do I properly understand ?
    No expert am I, but I think we must factor in Ueshiba Morihei. It was at the suggestion of Ueshiba's guru, Deguchi Onisaburo, that Takeda changed the name of his art to "aiki"-whatever. I suspect that this is not due wholly to any technical resonances with the prevailing concepts of aiki, but rather due to what has been characterized as "phonetic etymology," i.e., punning.

    The aiki of aikijujutsu and aikido are rendered differently; AJJ renders aiki as a compound with a singular meaning (something causing confusion or imbalance or distraction on the part of UKE); aikido renders aiki as two distinct terms with two meanings ("matching/harmony" and "spirit/will/intention," et al.)

    This is typical language play surviving from the medieval period in the New Religions (Omoto, et al., e.g., "Aikido is love"-"love being pronounced in Jpn as "ai"). Indeed when you read current scholarly accounts of medieval religion, they almost apologize for the emphasis on language inflicting such technical verbiage on the unsuspecting readers as metaphor, paranomasia, metonymy, synecdoche, etc. I suspect often the purpose of names was not meaning, but aspiration.
    Don J. Modesto
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Oh, I guess it was Nathan Scott who brought up the "mirroring" thing:
    Japanese terminology is often somewhat standardized, at least these days, but was not always so, and many still are being used with different meanings or have different meanings based on the context it is being used within... [For] example, some arts define aiki simply as the situation in which you and your opponent mirror each others postures physically.
    --Timothy Kleinert

    Aikido & Qigongs

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyKleinert View Post
    I also remember him (or maybe it was some else?) discussing a set of "aiki" kata/techniques in one ryu, where the defender simply (physically) mirrored the attacker. But anyway, yeah, it's my understanding that even though the term is old, it didn't necessarily have a universal definition.
    You might be thinking of Kiraku-ryu; if memory serves, they have a set of "aiki" techniques (possibly referred to in their densho as "aikijujuts?") which may involve mirroring. Ellis would probably be the guy to ask about that. I think there are some posts either here or on another forum discussing that subject.
    David Sims

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    Since noone has mentioned him, I point out that the late Donn Draeger identified the concept of "aiki-" as proceeding from the Aizu clan through a noted 18th century Confucian scholar. I mention this only because I am of the belief that the use the term "aiki-" as a method is of quite recent interpretation, with the use of the same term, as "attitude" is only of slighting older vintage.

    At the risk of putting too fine a point on this may I say that the implications for effecting "Balance" in the original, or conceptual, interpretation may have had much more to do with the compromising or reestablishment of "Hwa" in the community. By comparison, the idea of "balance" or "unbalance" as applied to a given technique may be a more recent attempt to lend concrete meaning to an otherwise ethereal subject. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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    Thanks to all of you. Sharing these opinions helps me a lot in undestanding aiki


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    Default Who cares?

    Jack,

    Why do you care whether someone is an ''established" authority or ''recognized?" I guess the real question, is "recognized by whom?"

    This isn't the practice of law with a hierarchy of authorities. This is training the body to perform certain tasks. The question is , how to do that in the best way?

    As to the ''is there only an aikijujutsu", I guess before I could think about that, I'd have to know what movements and methods were ''aikijujutsu."

    I wonder if what Kuroda Tetsuzan does, could be considered "aiki?"
    Tim Fong

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    Mark Murray Guest

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    Back to being on-topic, just where did Takeda learn his "aiki" skills? Knowing that might help to answer the question of is there other aiki besides Daito ryu aiki?

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    Exclamation Thread Split

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:13.
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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