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Thread: Discussion on Dokun/kyoten

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    Default Discussion on Dokun/kyoten

    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    Tony, you're talking about Shinjo, not Dokun.

    Wait, hang on--you refer to Dokun at the start, but Shinjo near the end. Come again?

    In Britain, during Chinkon-gyo, we recicte Seiku, Seigan and Shinjo with the chosoku done between Seigan and Shinjo. We collectively refer to the passages recited as The Dokun, even though it technically isn't, Dokun being the passage read out when sitting in anza (which we omit). I'm not sure of the reasons for this, maybe a Brit more senoir to me can comment an Mizuno sensei's reasons for doing it like this?
    Richard Codling
    Edinburgh Shibu
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    Tony, you're talking about Shinjo, not Dokun.

    Wait, hang on--you refer to Dokun at the start, but Shinjo near the end. Come again?

    Pretty good content, though.
    Collectively they are referred to as Dokun, even though its made up of several parts - at least in Japan anyway.
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
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    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith View Post
    What about the ‘souls’ bit? Well again, in my view, humans have a unique place (as far as we know) in the universe. We are the product of an evolutionary process which through a quirk of fate has produced brains complex enough to understand their position in the universe. This self awareness extends to being able to make conscious –and moral - choices about what we do with our lives, and this suffices for me as a practical definition of having a ‘soul’.
    I've given this some thought over the years, although not in an SK context.
    I wrote this essay a long time ago, and have since expanded it (or rather included it) into a chapter for a book I've almost finished. Anyway, here's the old version:
    http://www.neopax.com/asatru/spirit/index.html

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Codling View Post
    In Britain, during Chinkon-gyo, we recicte Seiku, Seigan and Shinjo with the chosoku done between Seigan and Shinjo. We collectively refer to the passages recited as The Dokun, even though it technically isn't, Dokun being the passage read out when sitting in anza (which we omit). I'm not sure of the reasons for this, maybe a Brit more senoir to me can comment an Mizuno sensei's reasons for doing it like this?
    An unofficial translation of the dokun can be found on the Kensai Kai website:

    http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/osie-ef.htm

    I would hazard a guess that this has been dropped in the West because of the references to kami. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami

    It's interesting to contrast the FFSK version of the seiku, seigan, and shinjo;

    http://www.budoclub-amiens.fr.st/
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Of course the official Dokun translation to English is also available in Kongo Zen Tokuhon's translation from WSKO.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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    Default Kyoten/Dokun

    Gassho.

    There seems to be some confusion concerning the different texts we read during chinkon gyō [鎮魂行].

    Within Kongo Zen Sohanzan Shorinji (branches referred to as dōin [道院] in Japan), the texts read during chinkon gyō are collectively called Kyōten [教典], and consists of seiku [聖句], seigan [誓願], raihashi [礼拝詞], dōkun [道訓] and shinjō [信条]. Raihaishi and dōkun are read when seated.

    In branches reffered to as shibu (all WSKO branches and school branches etc. in Japan) one do not read raihaishi, which is what makes it a "religion" and this is one thing that is different between shibu and dōin.
    For shibu the texts (seiku [聖句], seigan [誓願], dōkun [道訓] and shinjō [信条]) are collectively reffered to as dōkun.

    Within WSKO branches I don't think that many ever had the dōkun translated, and because of that never read it during chinkon gyō.

    In the English version of the Kongo Zen Tokuhon there is an official translation of the Kyōten, including raihaishi and dōkun.

    For some reason the dōkun is omitted in the English version of the ShorinjiKempo Tokuhon, it is included in the Japanese version and all shibu should read it.

    I hope this helps to straigthen out some question marks.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
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    OK, this is new to me. Thank you for shedding some light, Anders. I have some more questions about Dokun, though, so can we split this thread off (maybe starting from Richard's comment a while back)?

    First, I was never aware until now that Dokun can have two meanings. If I understand Anders correctly, it can mean either the single passage entitled "Dokun" or the collected set of recitations minus the Raihaishi. If that is the case, is there any easy way to distinguish which meaning is intended? It seems very problematic.

    As for the Dokun (single item) being part of chinkon for all shibu, I am VERY surprised. As Anders says, it is not in English Tokuhon. If that is an accident, it is a very serious one; if it is not an accident, what are we to conclude? Is it an accident that it appears in the Japanese edition? Alarm bells are ringing here.

    Furthermore there is the issue of religion. Raihaishi is clearly religious since it's very name means "words of worship." But how the heck can the Dokun (single item) not also be called religious?!! It's first words are, "The Way is/was born of Heaven"!

    Somebody make sense of this for me. I am much perturbed.
    Colin May
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    Shorinji Kempo Seattle Branch

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    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    OK, this is new to me. Thank you for shedding some light, Anders. I have some more questions about Dokun, though, so can we split this thread off (maybe starting from Richard's comment a while back)?
    I would also be interested in discussing this further in a separate thread.
    It's also a little confusing to see that there appear to be significant differences between the BSKF and FFSK versions of the shinjo; (based on my limited knowledge of French).
    For example, in the BSKF we state that "we endeavour to establish an ideal world", whereas the FFSK version states "we are working to build a better world".

    I think that we have discussed the use of "ideal world" before on e-budo, and that it could sound "cult like".
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Default "Ideal world"

    Gassho!
    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    […] For example, in the BSKF we state that "we endeavour to establish an ideal world", whereas the FFSK version states "we are working to build a better world".
    Well, it's still a much smaller difference than to the German version's "world in happiness and peace", isn't it?
    Yep, new thread needed.

    Kesshu,
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    Jan Lipsius
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    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    =
    For example, in the BSKF we state that "we endeavour to establish an ideal world", whereas the FFSK version states "we are working to build a better world".
    It fascinates me that after attending the North American Conference this weekend and all this discussion about unity that the British and North American text differ.
    Raul Rodriguez
    Shorinji Kempo New York City Branch

    http://www.ShorinjiKempoNYC.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    OK, this is new to me. Thank you for shedding some light, Anders. I have some more questions about Dokun, though, so can we split this thread off (maybe starting from Richard's comment a while back)?
    Ok, made a split of the thread, as requested (if some post shouldn't have been moved to this thread, or if I forgot to move one, please let me know, I didn't have the time to read through everything right now).

    I will try and get the time to add some to this thread later.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
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    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    First, I was never aware until now that Dokun can have two meanings. If I understand Anders correctly, it can mean either the single passage entitled "Dokun" or the collected set of recitations minus the Raihaishi. If that is the case, is there any easy way to distinguish which meaning is intended? It seems very problematic.
    Depends on context, very Japanese

    As for the Dokun (single item) being part of chinkon for all shibu, I am VERY surprised. As Anders says, it is not in English Tokuhon. If that is an accident, it is a very serious one; if it is not an accident, what are we to conclude? Is it an accident that it appears in the Japanese edition? Alarm bells are ringing here.
    Not an accident, it would be a pain to translate. Ten is something thats easy to understand in Japanese, but in English would you say sky? Heaven?

    In this case it means like "the source of dharma", which if it had a "source", it would be "the heavens". Kenseikai explains it well with the footnotes.

    Furthermore there is the issue of religion. Raihaishi is clearly religious since it's very name means "words of worship." But how the heck can the Dokun (single item) not also be called religious?!! It's first words are, "The Way is/was born of Heaven"!
    Again, its with the dharma. Heaven can mean sky as well
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

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    Leon, I'm confused by what you're saying. I expect it's because fatigue has negated my sense of humor today.

    Dokun "would be a pain to translate"? No, it wouldn't. Certainly not a pain when scaled against translating the entire rest of the Tokuhon.

    In the Dokun (single item), the word Ten (天) does not mean sky, it means heaven (or Heaven). There is no question. Kenseikai's presentation of Dokun, while earnest, is very amateur.

    I'm looking for real answers.
    Colin May
    Bellevue (next to Seattle), U.S.A.
    Shorinji Kempo Seattle Branch

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    Quote Originally Posted by satsukikorin View Post
    Leon, I'm confused by what you're saying. I expect it's because fatigue has negated my sense of humor today.

    Dokun "would be a pain to translate"? No, it wouldn't. Certainly not a pain when scaled against translating the entire rest of the Tokuhon.

    In the Dokun (single item), the word Ten (天) does not mean sky, it means heaven (or Heaven). There is no question. Kenseikai's presentation of Dokun, while earnest, is very amateur.

    I'm looking for real answers.
    Ok, Dokun would be interesting to translate. First you cannot go halfway like kenseikai has done and use Japanese - thats cheating. Michi is easily changed for path, like the right path or the path of righteousness or something like that.

    Ten is the harder one for me - it doesn't mean Heaven in the Christian sense, it means that it come from "above", from the heavens, from some higher non-human source. Dharma? I don't know, maybe I should quiz a doincho.

    I'm making an assumption when I say that Kongo Zen sticks to the main Buddist idea that there is no "Creator God" like you find in Christianity, but how does Dharma come into that?

    Now I've gone and confused myself...
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

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    [Ten] doesn't mean Heaven in the Christian sense, it means that it come from "above", from the heavens, from some higher non-human source.
    Not Christian heaven: duh, this is Buddhism. Also not from "the heavens," which would mean the sky. But don't kid yourself (or anyone else): the Ten in question is a mystical, spiritual one. It is a Heaven with a capital 'H'. Its exact nature is emminently debatable, but let's get the basic meaning straight.

    Michi is the Way. Not path with a small 'p'. Again, we're talking Buddhism here, and the Way (capital 'W') is accepted English terminology (cf. Seigan, "...and give ourselves to contributing to the Way").

    Kongo Zen sticks to the main Buddist idea that there is no "Creator God..."
    I believe you'll find that Buddhism doesn't even address the question of the/a Creator. The origin of the universe is not its concern; recognizing the nature of the universe, coming to terms with it, and transcending suffering are.

    'Dharma' does not have an English analog, and therefore remains as is.
    Colin May
    Bellevue (next to Seattle), U.S.A.
    Shorinji Kempo Seattle Branch

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