Likes Likes:  0
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 66

Thread: Discussion on Dokun/kyoten

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    147
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Hi,

    As Anders stated we will start the work to be able to include dokun in chinkon-gyo in Sweden. For me it is like this:

    Seigan – describes the correct attitude towards training
    Seiku - describes the foundation for a ”right” life
    Shinjo – describes in a high level how to act in daily life

    Dokun - Dokun elaborates on Shinjo and gives more detailed answers how to live life if we would like to follow “the way”

    Since dokun exists and includes Kaisos thoughts on how to live life if one would like to follow “the way”. I can not understand if we would choose not to study Kaisos thoughts on this and make this available for WSKO kenshi. If not, we prove that what some Japanese state – It is “difficult” for westerners to understand Kaisos philosophy to be true.

    Sorry if it’s hard to understand my English

    Gassho.
    Robert Liljeblad
    Stockholm Norra Shibu
    Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation
    www.shorinji-kempo.se

  2. #47
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Brixton, London, UK.
    Posts
    1,152
    Likes (received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Liljeblad View Post
    Hi,
    Since dokun exists and includes Kaisos thoughts on how to live life if one would like to follow “the way”. I can not understand if we would choose not to study Kaisos thoughts on this and make this available for WSKO kenshi. If not, we prove that what some Japanese state – It is “difficult” for westerners to understand Kaisos philosophy to be true.

    Sorry if it’s hard to understand my English

    Gassho.
    Not as hard as it would be for you to understand my Swedish...
    But if I may;

    "I cannot understand why we would chose not to study Kaisos thoughts on this and make this available for WSKO kenshi"

    Kesshu
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  3. #48
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Brixton, London, UK.
    Posts
    1,152
    Likes (received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    One related story I was told was that one kenshi at the recent WSKO practice session, who supposedly been practising for 15 years and was yudansha, asked another kenshi "what is chinkon gyō?" when informed that the session would start with that.
    I think that we should be grateful, both to the instructors who first brought SK from Japan to the West, and to the people who first learnt from them and who established SK in the West.
    It would have been easy for them to simply discard the practice of chinkon gyo, but by doing this we would have lost the essence of SK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    We were discussing philosophy, and gave the example of "live half for yourself and half for others". The station manager said "Yes, we have the same idea in Islam; live half the day for Allah and half for yourself".
    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith View Post
    Indar
    This is not the same as 'living half for yourself, half for others'. For a start, other people exist. Deriving ethics from metaphysics is not in my view at all sensible.
    Tony’s post is quite insulting, in that he (Tony) assumes a Muslim could not understand one of the basic precepts of Kongo Zen; and that I cannot understand what is said to me face to face.
    Having said that, I think that Tony has hit the nail on the head, and gone straight to the heart of this discussion.

    If it were true that Christians, Muslims, Jews, and people of other faiths cannot understand the principles of Kongo Zen, then this would explain why we don’t recite the dokun when we practice chinkon gyo. I don’t believe this to be the case, and would prefer to see SK as inclusive, not exclusive.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    331
    Likes (received)
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    Tony’s post is quite insulting, in that he (Tony) assumes a Muslim could not understand one of the basic precepts of Kongo Zen; and that I cannot understand what is said to me face to face.
    Indar, I think you may be overstretching Tony's quote here. What he seemed to say (as I read it) was that he believes living half for Allah is not the same as living half for other people, so that the gentleman's analogy was flawed. Not that the gentleman was incapable of grasping this idea. To an extent, Tony may be correct in this - doing good in the name of a god is inherently selfish, as failure to abide by said god's command sends the evildoer hellwards. Personally, I prefer that people be good to others for the sake of it rather than because an all powerful deity threatens damnation if they're not, but if the end result is the same then we're at least part of the way there.

    As for the second part, I think this may be a case where personal interpretation is dominant. You may understand what was being said, but someone else may understand it differently.
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    859
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default re last couple of posts

    Indar
    Tony’s post is quite insulting, in that he (Tony) assumes a Muslim could not understand one of the basic precepts of Kongo Zen; and that I cannot understand what is said to me face to face.
    er no. As Steve said, I'm merely disputing that 'living half for Allah and half for yourself' is equivalent in meaning to 'living half for others and half for yourself'. I have my own personal ideological issues with all of major montheistic religions; any creed which insists on a monistic explanation of reality in toto seems to me far more reductionist, and in a perverse and destructive way, than Western scientific rationalism. I just not prepared to indulge in the kind of wishful thinking that Indar appears to be willingto be about the nature of these religions as ideologies and as systems of power and control.

    Am I disputing that individual Moslems are just as capable as me as living ethical lives, including 'living half for yourself and half for others'? By no means. I just don't acknowledge that a deity is an essential part of the equation. A Moslem may well feel differently - that is of course their prerogative.

    PS my reservations about religion didn't stop me having a thoroughly good time training with Indonesian kenshi at Hombu a few weeks ago. I have no doubt that they are practising Shorinji Kempo just as sincerely as I am. I'm just not going to start pretending that my moral and ethical beliefs can be reconciled philosophically with those beliefs systems that maintain the most important aspect of moral life is one's relationship with God - it just isn't true.

    Steve
    To an extent, Tony may be correct in this - doing good in the name of a god is inherently selfish, as failure to abide by said god's command sends the evildoer hellwards. Personally, I prefer that people be good to others for the sake of it rather than because an all powerful deity threatens damnation if they're not, but if the end result is the same then we're at least part of the way there.

    To some extent, actions matter more to me than motivations, because it is actions that tend to have most effect on other beings. That being said, beliefs tend to have a pretty significant influence on actions. Again, pretending otherwise would be an insult to everybody's intelligence.


    Tony leith

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    It would have been easy for them to simply discard the practice of chinkon gyo, but by doing this we would have lost the essence of SK.
    An optimist is someone who sees the glass half full, and a pessimist as one who sees it half empty. Of course, the real question is: Is the glass currently filling or emptying?

    Dirk

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    LONDON
    Posts
    55
    Likes (received)
    0

    Arrow Quining Qualia [slight drift]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere
    And for Dawkins next trick he'll debunk qualia I expect.
    No need, Dennett debunked 'qualia' 20 years ago:

    http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/quinqual.htm
    Daniel J Hulme

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel J Hulme View Post
    No need, Dennett debunked 'qualia' 20 years ago:

    http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/quinqual.htm
    "So when we look one last time at our original characterization of qualia, as ineffable, intrinsic, private, directly apprehensible properties of experience, we find that there is nothing to fill the bill. "

    Seems he has also debunked consciousness, since it shares those definitions. I guess that wraps it all up then.

    Dirk

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    LONDON
    Posts
    55
    Likes (received)
    0

    Thumbs up Consciousness Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    "So when we look one last time at our original characterization of qualia, as ineffable, intrinsic, private, directly apprehensible properties of experience, we find that there is nothing to fill the bill. "

    Seems he has also debunked consciousness, since it shares those definitions. I guess that wraps it all up then.

    Dirk
    No, but he has a very good stab at explaining it (away):

    http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-.../dp/0316180661

    Not that I absolutely agree with everything Dennett says, but at least there's rigour.
    Daniel J Hulme

  10. #55
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Brixton, London, UK.
    Posts
    1,152
    Likes (received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    An optimist is someone who sees the glass half full, and a pessimist as one who sees it half empty. Of course, the real question is: Is the glass currently filling or emptying?

    Dirk
    No, the real question is what are we doing
    to fill or to empty the glass.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Karlstad, Sweden
    Posts
    1,418
    Likes (received)
    53

    Default

    Gassho.

    I might have difficulties in understanding your English, but what in the last couple of posts have a direct relation to the Topic of this thread? (dōkun/kyōten)

    If you can't stay on topic, start a new thread with another topic, how hard can it be.
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Yiewsley, U.K.
    Posts
    2,449
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    I have difficulties understanding their english..... and I am english (or so they say)

    Just echoing Anders........ keep on topic guys, or if it was then make reference to the topic when discussing your existential musings....
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  13. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    No, the real question is what are we doing
    to fill or to empty the glass.
    And what are we doing?
    As far as I can see WSKO seems to be emptying the glass.
    Is anyone doing anything to get more religious teachings in SK over here?
    Any realistic prospects?

    Dirk

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Harrogate, North Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    4,232
    Likes (received)
    97

    Default

    Attempt at staying on-topic;

    How unusual is it to recite something during a martial art class? Is Shorinji Kempo unique? What are the kinds of thing that people recite in other martial arts?
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Near Detroit, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    13
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    No, the real question is what are we doing
    to fill or to empty the glass.
    Does the glass have beer in it?

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •