Body Conditioning

[Finny]

Jack, you continue to stuff your feet (both of them) further and further into your mouth.

Dan DOES have experience in Daito Ryu. You don't.

You have absolutely no credibility here - your posts are barely comprehensible, and you continually attack Dan like a petulant child throwing a tantrum.

Get the message, please.

Stop posting - period. Read and learn a bit. Stop jumping to wild conclusions, and filling in the blanks in your own knowlege with assumptions.

You have NEVER made a positive contribution to either this thread, or the forum, as far as I can see, and yet you seem to think you are in a position to appoint yourself quasi-moderator, and question people's agendas and experience (when most here already know these)

That's why I care Jack

Maybe if you actually read what other people have to say, you'd know that.

But who knows, keep stuffing your feet down your throat, maybe one day they'll end up where they're meant to be.

There was nothing threatening in what Dan wrote - another case of your stupid childish tantrum getting the best of you.

As to what you wrote about Human Growth Hormone and me down here in Aus, well - I thought you made my point for me perfectly... that is to say, it wasn't even legible english.

Maybe if I could understand what you were saying I might find a personal insult there - which certainly WOULD be contravening E-Budo policy.

You keep saying you're leaving, but you continue to post.

Maybe you should leave, go to massachusets and meet Dan.

[elder999]

Second of all, concerning the red text above from your post. Doesn't this violate E-Budo rules? If I am not mistaken I would say this is a theat. I don't intent or ever implyed violence to you. Though you bait me. I don't intend nor in any manner implyed or otherwise said I would harm you. Yet, you imply you will use violence on me. Should I take it seriously? Will it be you or one of your buddies who will hunt me down and harm me, is that what your also implying? You really are odd, someone I would not like to ever met. You are frightening, Dan. Lots of red flags with you. I agree now whole-heartedly with Chris.

I suggest the Moderator and others to look at your post more closely, and take some action upon your threats.

.

Jack, you need to take a pill-seriously.

I don't know Dan Harden, but I like him...of course, we've got a lot in common:we both have dojo in our barns, we both make knives-at least, I make knives, Dan makes swords-and his Daito ryu teacher was one of my seniors in Miyama ryu....

Who's your Daito ryu teacher?

This whole application of words to the somewhat esoteric almost always fosters arguments-it's perfectly okay for you to disagree with each other. It's not okay to personally attack what a person says they do with no direct experience of it. I also think it's kind of silly of you to keep harping on him to post a video on youtube-videos aren't usually adequate proof or demonstration of anything, though you can often see a few things, if they're real, that is..

More importantly, he hasn't threatened you at all-he extended the same sort of invitation that he extends to almost everyone: "Come on up and see what I do.." If you construe that as a threat, well then, you are mistaken. I suggest you go on doing "tai chi for health," and stay out of discussions on principles and their application-especially their application-especially the ones you don't seem to know too much about...

[leavittk]

Kevin,

I'm using the term fighter very narrowly and applying it to myself and my experiences. When I write "fighter", I mean someone that can take a hit and come back for more as well as deliver pain that makes others not want to come back for more. Yes, I do mean on the street. I’ve never been at war so I can’t speak to combat in a military sense. I worked as a bouncer and for several years just found myself in bad situations. I have no doubt luck and my guardian angel were with me most of the time (hence my username "lucky"). In the past ten years my "fighting" has strictly been in the dojo (unless you count my kids beating me) ; ).

Regards,


A. De Luna

Thanks for the providing your perspective. It is helpful to me to understand the various criteria or perspective that people are coming from when discussing this topic!

[mjchip]

Oh, before I go, Dan, I am not concerned with those you teach or those who support you. They very well may learn things from you. I don't judge them, infact kudos to them. It is you I have been addressing. Why use and bring others in on this. What I am mainly concerned about is you.

Second of all, concerning the red text above from your post. Doesn't this violate E-Budo rules? If I am not mistaken I would say this is a theat. I don't intent or ever implyed violence to you. Though you bait me. I don't intend nor in any manner implyed or otherwise said I would harm you. Yet, you imply you will use violence on me. Should I take it seriously? Will it be you or one of your buddies who will hunt me down and harm me, is that what your also implying? You really are odd, someone I would not like to ever met. You are frightening, Dan. Lots of red flags with you. I agree now whole-heartedly with Chris.

I suggest the Moderator and others to look at your post more closely, and take some action upon your threats.

Finny, why do you care? That concerns me too.

I am taking time off.

Jack,

The internet is a funny place where written word sometimes get misconstrued due to lack of body language, tone, etc.. I can tell you that Dan isn't threatening you. He simply invited you , as he did a few others (myself included after waiting 6 years and finally getting a personal introduction) to come up and "feel" what he's been talking about in this sometimes cloudy medium.

When he says that he's sure a bunch of experienced folks would drive and fly down to meet you he's talking about us. It would be a pleasure to see another naysayer be pleasantly surprised as they discover some "new" skills/abilities that they may apply to thier arts (whatever they may be).

When he said: "Then, nothing but movement. You may try to do anything to me you like: Aikido, Daito ryu, Judo, or, I have pairs of 6 oz gloves you can use.
Mind you, I won’t teach you a damn thing, but, I will welcome the chance to demonstrate my ideas and their relevancy to the martial arts...on you."

...he was not threatening you. He was saying that he would let you do whatever you'd like to him as his demonstrated his skills/ideas to you. This is the same thing he said to a bunch of us and the same treatment that he gave us. The only difference I sensed in his post compared to how he treats us is he stated to you "I won't teach you a damned thing."

I won't begin to guess what he mean't here but if we were talking about my school I wouldn't even invite you up nevermind send you away without "teaching" you anything because you seem to have a generally poor attitude (and my school is one that takes students from the general public). However, since Dan is such a big hearted guy I imagine he meant that he would probably let his students do the teaching (as he did for us other outsiders) to prove that not only does he have skill but he can readily teach it to others who then would also be capable of passing it on if they were so inclined.

Hope you put your misplaced fear aside and either stop being inflammatory or come up and visit and "feel" for yourself what Dan and others have been talking about here.

Cordially,

Mark Chiappetta

[wagnerphysed]

This is a sensitive subject. Dan could you clarify Finny's Assertion please? What is your experience in Daito-ryu? My understanding is that you are a Mixed Martial Artist who has not tied himself down by making a commitment to a Martial Tradition (in this case Daito-ryu). Is this correct?
I recall that not very long ago, you yourself posted something on this forum to this end.

While I respect your efforts to provide explore and develop the methods you have experienced in your participation in the arts you are using to develop your overall eclectic martial skills, I think you are missing the point. I know that this will be seen as a flame, but that's not what this is. I will clarify.

Your post is in the Daito-ryu forum. WHile your movements or techniques may be inspired by experiences with people you have trained with who are in the Daito-ryu, these amalgamations/creations are not Daito-ryu. In fact, as I believe Nathan tried to explain (I thought he was really clear), the technique is really only a small part of the ryu. There is so much more to a tradition than it's body of techniques. Practicing only the techniques does not give anyone claim to understanding a ryu. Nor does cross-training with people in a ryu or having conversations, reading books, and interviews.

Mixed Martial Artists only dabble in other martial arts. Let me clarify this assertion. In order to become proficient in a martial tradition, one will need to put forth a serious effort in training (read as years). In order to develop an MMA, there is no time to spend plumbing the depths of a tradition. There is no desire to plumb the depths either, (I think I have read this between the lines in your posts. Am I reading this correctly?) there is only a desire to take what is needed or deemed to be worthwhile. There is also the time needed to research traditions, techniques, and other aspects of training that are required (much like , but different, to what a person studying a martial tradition would do). With these acquisitions, the MMA practitioner then combines techniques into his/her own style. This combining is the training that MMA would focus much of there time and energy on. All of this takes time. A person involved with a martial tradition would be spending all of this time on learning their tradition, instead of spreading that time across multiple traditions and research.

On rare occasions, there are individuals who have picked up traditions very quickly, Ueshiba comes to mind. However, these individuals have invested an incredible amount of time in other arts prior to their involvement in the tradition they seem to magically pick up. This time spent gives them the background knowledge needed, the mind/sight training if you will, to pick out the reality of a technique or principle. In some cases, this is in part due to a gift the person has, i.e. Bruce Lee. Very few of these individuals have been able to pass their ability on to their students. I have a theory on this as well, but that doesn't really fit with this post.

So, how does all of this apply? What your doing is not Daito-ryu. It's not Aiki as it applies to Daito-ryu. Your experience in Daito-ryu is limited at best ((in time(seminars versus training in a school), or in practice (training only in the techniques of the school and not in other aspects), or both)). So why are you posting regarding your research in MMA techniques here in the Daito-ryu forum?

[Mark Murray]

Your post is in the Daito-ryu forum.

Actually, no, it's not.

And I quote,

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5559

SUBJECT CRITERIA

In order to encourage discussion, styles and traditions that are gendai {post-Meiji} and/or not recognized formally as koryu will be accepted as topics for discussion (otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about, to be honest!). This includes arts using the names "aikibudo", "aikijutsu", "aikibujutsu", etc.

Mixed Martial Artists only dabble in other martial arts. Let me clarify this assertion. In order to become proficient in a martial tradition, one will need to put forth a serious effort in training (read as years). In order to develop an MMA, there is no time to spend plumbing the depths of a tradition.

Not speaking for Dan in this instance, but rather speaking from my own view of many, many teachers, both past and present. People like Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei, Draeger, Mochizuki, Oyama, etc. These teachers, and a whole lot more like them, are held up as being fine examples. And every single one of them were mixed martial artists. They all plumbed depths of tradition. Please don't confuse MMA with "Sport". Most people like to label the newer sport fighters as MMA'ers. They are MMA in the same sense that a McDojo Karate school is traditional karate.

On rare occasions, there are individuals who have picked up traditions very quickly, Ueshiba comes to mind. However, these individuals have invested an incredible amount of time in other arts prior to their involvement in the tradition they seem to magically pick up. This time spent gives them the background knowledge needed, the mind/sight training if you will, to pick out the reality of a technique or principle. In some cases, this is in part due to a gift the person has, i.e. Bruce Lee. Very few of these individuals have been able to pass their ability on to their students.

Rare? I don't see that at all. As I listed above, there are numerous examples of these kinds of people. You can find them throughout all of Budo history. Quite a few people I know in the Aikido world have various backgrounds in the martial arts: Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Jodo, Kenjutsu, Arnis, Karate, etc. They are mixed martial artists in the true sense. They have studied other arts and what they have learned has made them better overall. And they're passing on their abilities just fine. Mochizuki's school is one of the best examples of an MMA school passing on abilities.

Anyway, I don't agree with your assessment of this forum or MMA.

Mark

[Jeff Cook]

I'm curious Brian. What kind of "traditions" did Ueshiba pick up? What kind of traditions did Takeda teach him? Back "in the day" when jujitsu arts were formulated and taught, I seriously doubt anyone was interested in "traditions" - they were interested in becoming proficient in a very short time without a whole lot of fluff and pomp attached to it (wow, kinda sounds like MMA doesn't it? ).

By Ueshiba's own hand, we read that Takeda taught him individual waza at a very expensive price. I have read nothing about Takeda teaching him "traditions" (I may be missing that part - if so, please fill me in). I suspect that Ueshiba created his own traditions for his students to follow.

Jeff Cook

[Dan Harden]

Brian
I don’t do Daito ryu. I don’t do Chinese martial arts. You’re wrong about never training in a traditional art though. I have and I currently am, amongst other things I choose to do. But through it all I never stopped training the way I did in my youth, with all manner of people. I can walk quite comfortably in both worlds. I do what I do and I stand on my own two feet, but I am by no means unique in that now am I? Just now I’m discussing body conditioning that prepares the body for traditional martial arts AND any form of grappling. I’m not talking about “an” art. So, where I have trained and where I do train is sort of a waste of time discussing. That said. the body conditioning I and others do and are showing, is the key to training the body to do …lets just call it “stuff.” And It was taught to us from traditional arts. Anyone who knows this stuff, and everyone who has trained it will tell you pretty much the same thing. You can’t “discover” or make this stuff up. This training is so counter to what I thought I knew I’d never have stumbled on to it. You can however build on it, and choose to use it in a manner of your choosing. The reason I choose to show it to mostly traditional artists is that they are the ones who
a. Need it most
b. Have it in their arts in the first place.

Everyone wants to keep discussing me but no one has addressed my questions.
I contend that this stuff is known and just not taught openly in the traditional arts. If it were not so:
1. How did the guys teaching this stuff, from varied backgrounds, all end up talking bout similar things and feeling similar in many ways? I contend that these men only know what they were taught as well.
2. Men from varied backgrounds have gone to train with two or all three. Many of whom are teachers and some are seniors in these arts. How can it be that experienced men of such varied backgrounds all state. “I want it.” This feels like so and so from my_______art.
3. Why could these men find the methods of these tanren trainers so valuable to their training?
How, could that happen in any other way, than it was taught to them from traditional arts, and once shown, experienced men saw it for what it was- the key to their traditional arts.
How can this even be possible? Mass histeria? Poor judgement on the part of so many of you?
Or is it...simply...true.

As for tradition
What is Daito ryu Aiki, what is Aikido Aiki, what is or are the jins in Taiji, what is the way power was meant to be generated in Xing-I, what is the way power was meant to be generated in Karate. Guys can fight it out and remain convinced of the singularity of their arts power forever. Seems to me you have a very narrow ratio of folks in the arts who have much of anything worth talking about in the first place. And the others are hiding it from students.

Men will remain forever convinced you have to follow some twenty year path of some art of another to learn how to fight. Its nonsense. How is that. Because what so many have clearly demonstrated is that at the end of twenty years? They stink up the place. What they learend and were indoctrinated into is an art form, part of a tradition. Few seem to demonstrate they they got anything truly exceptional and the ratio remains small as the numbers keep declining.
In the end, I think we will discover that the power generation that is key is incredibly similar. Further, that it is held back from most as a method of protectionism. It won’t change the rest of what is in these arts that “identifies them; technique, strategy, waza, etc., instead it will make them as powerful as they once were…in the hands of more people doing them. Who knows a few of them may be world class innovators and masters in the making were they given better tools.
Cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

I'm curious Brian. What kind of "traditions" did Ueshiba pick up? What kind of traditions did Takeda teach him? Back "in the day" when jujitsu arts were formulated and taught, I seriously doubt anyone was interested in "traditions" - they were interested in becoming proficient in a very short time without a whole lot of fluff and pomp attached to it (wow, kinda sounds like MMA doesn't it? ).

By Ueshiba's own hand, we read that Takeda taught him individual waza at a very expensive price. I have read nothing about Takeda teaching him "traditions" (I may be missing that part - if so, please fill me in). I suspect that Ueshiba created his own traditions for his students to follow.

Jeff Cook

That’s an old but absolutely true observation, Jeff. I have a friend who is the staunchest, traditionalist you ever want to meet. If it doesn't have a provenance or heritage, he wants no part of it. I have taken him apart so many times I lost count, but unless it is part of an established "thing" he won't touch it. He will tell you its the softest, most powerful thing he ever encountered, and then go do something lesser because..
cue up the fiddler on the roof...TRADITION!!
I asked him to explain Musashi.
We've had so many conversations about traditional masters some of whom founded schools out of nothing because "God told them" or a tengu taught em, what have you. Nothing as a Koryu at one time or another it was just one guys vision. How did he have to prove it? Fighting. This all old rehash but its interesting maybe for the younger guys. The funny thing is is that in their day, when they were new, how many of these traditionalist would have followed these arts? Arts that were, in there day-MMA.
How many of these masters were they to come alive again today, would look at their "traditions" they invented with pride? Or not even recognize them or...walk out the door.
I walk both worlds as I love the traditional but also the modern combatives. I still think the real power to move the body will never be found in modern combatives. The traditional arts have kept that. So I we have to pay respect to them for that. In fact there is much I can say but I won't out of respect. The art format is getting to be a bit dicey as more folks get educated about the realities of fighting. There remains enough guys who love the traditional stuff to keep them going, but the real worry -and it is talked about- is just who...can keep them "alive."
Cheers

[R_Garrelts]

Ah, never mind.

[wagnerphysed]

I stand corrected about your choice of forums. However, my comment about rare....Mark, the number of names mentioned in your post is small compared to the number of people who have actually taken up the study of the various martial traditions. As for confusion of MMA, I'm not. Take Mr. Draeger, the fact of the matter is, that he did plumb the depths of the traditions he studied intently and he passed those traditions on to his students. He was in a position and time to study the multiple arts he was involved in and he did not, to my knowledge, combine those arts into his own ha, (however, I could be wrong and I will check).

Jeff, Ueshiba was taught the entire Daito-ryu curriculum as it existed at the time of Ueshiba's participation (about 20 years). He was a Kyoju Dairi (sic?) and held a Soden ( I think this is the correct name for the scroll he was given) which at the time would have been equivalent to a Menkyo Kaiden. So, he was taught the tradition. As Mr. Okomoto has done, Ueshiba took his knowledge and his practices and developed his own tradition. The important thing to remember about these individuals is the level within the tradition that they reached prior to creating their own.

Dan, I see why you would think that I said you didn't study traditional martial arts. My comment is confusing. To clarify, I am aware of your involvement in traditional arts. I'm pretty sure I know what it is you study and whom you study under. But as you say, this is not the point of this post. However, I am glad that you clarified the whole Daito-ryu issue

I don’t do Daito ryu. I don’t do Chinese martial arts.

My concern was that some responses to the post were (not yours) presented you as an authority, or may have given you undue validation, as a Daito-ryu member/practitioner.

As for the answers to your questions, which are very reasonable, I can't really provide any response not knowing who it is you are talking about. However, let me go back to a point made over and over again in many places. Everything you need to learn/know is provided in the Koryu system (only speaking for Daito-ryu and Jikishinkageryu).

Don't blame the technique if it doesn't work!

It is not explicitly taught and that is why after 20 years so many people may stink up a place. But what is embedded in these Koryu traditions is implicitly taught. So it will come down to the student's ability to learn and the teacher's ability to teach.

Learning is a series of chaotic adjustments to the stimulus of the environment. As a student becomes more familiar with the environment, they begin to extract principles and knowledge that leads to further adjustment and learning. Through this process, chaos is refined into knowledge and ability. The limits here are, the teacher's ability to create the environment and the student's ability to learn or the student's learning style (and also the teacher's ability or desire to adapt the environment to a different learning style).

Does this answer at least one of your questions?

[wagnerphysed]

Part of respecting a martial tradition or Koryu is keeping it intact, alive and transmitting it to others. This is the responsibility of those involved in the arts and is the price you pay when you take from these arts...it's a family thing. Most respectful people wouldn't take support from their families and then turn around and ignore them in their times of need or for that matter disavow the family. I realize, in this day and age, that I may, in fact, be wrong about this. More than likely, this is the problem that exists between your line of reason and mine.

[Dan Harden]

Aaron
You big goof. Stop...pushing..the buttons.

We have to meet some day. It's been a long time eh?
And...I made knives before I started making swords. Kukris remain my favorite.
Happy holidays guy
Dan

[elder999]

Aaron
You big goof. Stop...pushing..the buttons.

We have to meet some day. It's been a long time eh?
And...I made knives before I started making swords. Kukris remain my favorite.
Happy holidays guy
Dan

Buttons??? It wasn't me! I think it has something to do with my wretched wireless connection......that and my big fingers on a laptop keyboard..

I am a big goof, though..

Meeting could happen, someday.....looks like I'm "retiring."

I've made three swords in my entire life-one good, one frustrating fantasy piece, and one real POS..

This thread has been an interesting discussion that I'd like to see keep going-without the ridiculous sniping-I have nothing against sniping, personally, but when it reaches the level of "You're wrong because I say so," then it's pretty ridiculous, and embarassing to witness.

My holidays aren't so happy, but thanks, and back at ya.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Part of respecting a martial tradition or Koryu is keeping it intact, alive and transmitting it to others. This is the responsibility of those involved in the arts and is the price you pay when you take from these arts...it's a family thing. Most respectful people wouldn't take support from their families and then turn around and ignore them in their times of need or for that matter disavow the family. I realize, in this day and age, that I may, in fact, be wrong about this. More than likely, this is the problem that exists between your line of reason and mine.

The implication here is people of today do not have the respect and reverence for koryu arts that generations of old had and that somehow this is a bad modern twist of our time. Is this really an accurate assessment or a romantic remembrance of a past that never was? Have people really changed or do we have a natural tendency to remember the 'good old days' through tinted glasses?

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't most of the well known martial artists of the past study in multiple arts often receiving licenses in more than one art? If there was so much respect where people did not take support from their families then why are there so MANY koryu arts through history? How did each of these traditions start? I.E. How did the first master obtain his knowledge? Did each of these masters start his koryu art with 'new' information that he developed or was there a good, perhaps great deal, of borrowing?

I am not claiming to know the answer to any of these questions and am curious to hear from those that have done the research as the thinking represented above always seems at odds with some basic facts, at least to me.

Take care and Happy New Year to all,

Mark J.