Body Conditioning

[Samurai Jack]

Yes the goal with each of those is basic body training to do what? Prepare the body. It isn’t technical expression or outer form. Tai chi does not look like Xing-I but the results from training the body are the same
When you say “those in the CMA” can’t agree, I’d bet they are the same class as those who cannot see beyond their own arts everywhere. I have met staunch zealots who were well versed, utterly convinced of their arts uniqueness, and they are usually without skill.

I just want to chime in regard to CIMA. I am doing it careful as my last experience here in this forum I was trying to gain favor, and fell flat on my face.

Having much experience in CIMA and CEMA and various teachers for many years, I think what Finny is saying should be looked at closer. CMA can't agree what internal, how true this is! And it is not as simple of a matter of the opinion of zealots. It is a very dynamic issue that includes Chinese history, culture, education, language, philosophy, location, amoung other things including what you point out, all have an influnence on what internal is determined to be, much less comparing something that itself can't be decided on, to anything else. And I agree, if you where to compare then what CIMA is the model? Is it Xingyiquan, or ...? I went down this road.

There are reams of books, articles, and countless forum debates on this issue and it really can't be reduced to what seems to be the obvious plane of thought or discussion. Basically, am saying your statement presents a great difficulty and complexity.

[Samurai Jack]

Dan, can you explain further with the details of what consitutes tandern you mention? What are the physical movement routines of body training in the art. This could help others recognized of the possible similarities, thus maybe pointing to an answer to the topic question.

[Finny]

Yes the goal with each of those is basic body training to do what? Prepare the body. It isn’t technical expression or outer form. Tai chi does not look like Xing-I but the results from training the body are the same
When you say “those in the CMA” can’t agree, I’d bet they are the same class as those who cannot see beyond their own arts everywhere.

Thanks for the reply Dan - I've learnt a lot from this thread.

I'm absolutely no expert, but I have no doubt there would be many (the majority of?) CIMA experts/masters out there who would disagree with you.

Of course, while Taiji and Xingyi may not look the same, there will still be many similarities in terms of quality of movement (whole body movement, coordination etc)

However - is that enough to call them the same (in terms of 'body development'/tanren or whatever you want to call it)?

It seems to me that there are so many different ways of developing these qualities that lead down different roads that it seems a bit strange to call them 'basically the same thing'

The type of body movement developed by Taiji chan si jin training is completely different from say Xinyiliuhequan's front weighted, straight road training, which in turn is completely different to Baiyuan Tongbei's extended, through the back, whippy strikes.

It just seems to me to be way too broad a generalisation, that's all.

[Dan Harden]

I just want to chime in regard to CIMA. I am doing it careful as my last experience here in this forum I was trying to gain favor, and fell flat on my face.

Having much experience in CIMA and CEMA and various teachers for many years, I think what Finny is saying should be looked at closer. CMA can't agree what internal, how true this is! And it is not as simple of a matter of the opinion of zealots. It is a very dynamic issue that includes Chinese history, culture, education, language, philosophy, location, amoung other things including what you point out, all have an influnence on what internal is determined to be, much less comparing something that itself can't be decided on, to anything else. And I agree, if you where to compare then what CIMA is the model? Is it Xingyiquan, or ...? I went down this road.

There are reams of books, articles, and countless forum debates on this issue and it really can't be reduced to what seems to be the obvious plane of thought or discussion. Basically, am saying your statement presents a great difficulty and complexity.

Jack
Your statement is another example of the understanding of students everywhere. I can introduce you to many...of you.. and you would all agree. All you have done is join the ranks and echo the voices of students everywhere. Forums are full of them.
On the other hand there are men who can seriously do, and they see what is needed in order...to...do. They can stand in both cultures arts.
You can continue to try to connect your body through years of forms or Japanese Kata and argue along with the masses.
Or pursue Tanren
Tanren is it.
Then the "expression" of it-becomes art specific
Will I tell you how? No.
Could I show you? Yes.
There are dozens of people training this way now. Perhaps every one of them would have, at one time, agreed with you too. I doubt a single one would agree with you now. In the end the arts were always about improving you, changing your body to make it strong. It is well recorded and written about in many cultures. But it isn't and never was about the type of strength men know. It is a different strength which leads to incredible sensitivity and capturing control, and powerful strikes.
Cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Thanks for the reply Dan - I've learnt a lot from this thread.

I'm absolutely no expert, but I have no doubt there would be many (the majority of?) CIMA experts/masters out there who would disagree with you.

Of course, while Taiji and Xingyi may not look the same, there will still be many similarities in terms of quality of movement (whole body movement, coordination etc)

However - is that enough to call them the same (in terms of 'body development'/tanren or whatever you want to call it)?

It seems to me that there are so many different ways of developing these qualities that lead down different roads that it seems a bit strange to call them 'basically the same thing'

The type of body movement developed by Taiji chan si jin training is completely different from say Xinyiliuhequan's front weighted, straight road training, which in turn is completely different to Baiyuan Tongbei's extended, through the back, whippy strikes.

It just seems to me to be way too broad a generalisation, that's all.

Brendan
They are all about rising energy, sinking energy, weight transfer and dantien/center manipulated fascia work joined with breath power. The control mechansims through the central pivot are still part of tanren, but the use can get to easily "personalized" into an art form. It all works through the back(spine). The training of it takes years. What you see the hands doing to make peng jin, or say aiki age means nothing, that's an art form. Another form of the same rising energy. Capturing with it or bouncing off/throwing is a choice. Xingi-I as an art form is a beautiful example of continous Aiki age and aiki sage, and weight transfer. Not some wrist grab version, but of what is happening through the legs, back and center.
Don't get lost in "the look" of what you see.

Cheers
Dan

[Samurai Jack]

No offense Dan, but I sense from your post something is not well forged, there is a lot of fog. What I am guessing is your saying the body must be trained to act on internal process as I was taught is called fah jing. What you said to Finny describes nothing more than CMA more to what is called internal arts philosophy. Maybe the author of the book you are citing is throwing a curve ball. Tanren sound as if it is nothing more then CIMA philosophy? The difference you speak of may be nothing more then a tweaked CIMA philosophy given to those students who know nothing of CIMA philosophy that does strengthen the body of a student. It sounds as if the author was playing with the students, or allows the reader to think so. Any type of structuring, alignment of the posture and the body to produce fah jing will easily improve those unknowing students performance.

We can say as a more relevant cultural example such as, golf, baseball, tennis, etc. If you don’t coach a players swing, stance and body nor correct their body alignment and posture etc. the novice player not will improve. If you leave it up to the player to figure all that out, the player struggles senselessly with little improvement. Then provide vague rhetoric and word games in lieu of answers to questions of the player, and the player never improves. Maybe one player out of a hundred or more will be a natural and not need coaching.

If you subscribe to this method of not coaching, well… it insures you as the expert. Insures your skill will not be surpassed. The philosophy behind it is if everyone knows everything then everyone is an expert. Add to that playing cat and mouse with what I described above and call it the inner secrets of the game (as I think the author of the book you cite does) as a coach no one will surpass you, and you insure yourself as a legend.

Basically what I am getting at is you (no offense) subscribe to the author’s ploy on how to improve etc. I understand the author’s voice that you can’t mindlessly perform motion, i.e. go through the motions when practicing and improving your golf game. When working on your golf swing you have to think about ways to improve upon it, i.e. trying different stances, grips, shoulder rotation, swing height, balance, weight distribution, visualization, breathing, conditioning etc. to improve your game, along with good solid coaching to correct you and give you tips. I think the author of the book doesn’t want to let that cat out of the bag.

Now is swinging of a base bat different then other swing instrument sport? Yes, and no. Yes, there are overlapping principles, such as stances, balance, and swinging motion commonalities. No, you don’t swing a baseball bat like a golf club or a tennis racket. Yes, knowing how to hit a base ball can lead to a less steep learning curve when learning to play golf, tennis, cricket, stickball, etc. Frankly, imo what is being discussed is not that big of a deal. It is like that great tag line that Bruce Lee said in his movie about a finger and a moon. If you look at the pointing finger you miss all the heavenly glory. In the 60s and 70s we use to see a lot of moons (streaking too ) and finger pointing, and watch Bruce Lee movies and Kung Fu the tv series with all that abstract and confusing Chinese philosophy. Which they never had on the Ponderosa. Hopsing always made sense.

[Dan Harden]

Jack
You haven't a clue as to what I am talking about.
I've nothing substative to reply to in your post, except that the fog you are seeing... as referenced in your opener to me... is not of my making.
No offense...back at ya.
Dan

[Samurai Jack]

Jack
You haven't a clue as to what I am talking about.
I've nothing substative to reply to in your post, except that the fog you are seeing... as referenced in your opener to me... is not of my making.
No offense...back at ya.
Dan

I am sorry you feel this why. Then please explain.

I am not sure why you fail to understand that I know exactly what your talking about. Which I prefer to discuss in a different structure. Maybe you fail to understand a structure that makes it more relavant to our culture and other readers.

Basically, I don't think it is all that complicated. I think the author is messing with the reader, he is not telling where the treasure is buried, otherwise everyone will have it. Remember the author is a traditionalist, legendary fame is his goal. All the info in the book is for that and not related to a dicussion like this. When I speak of the author I don't mean his student who wrote the book, rather his instructor.

I just think you unfortunately are latching on to pyrite purposely published by a clever Gold Miner who don't want to reveal where his gold mine is. The book it self is self-promotion with no nuggets of gold. And using it to discuss what is and what isn't (in highbrow Japanessque parlance an ambiguously defined concept put forthin this thread) is the result of a Miner suffering from gold fever. It is my understanding if you did find gold you wouldn't be discussing this at all. You would be showing us the gold.

[Mark Murray]

Oh Ron, Ron, Ron!
You must know that the surest and fastest way to doom a thread and guarantee that no one will post anything intriguing on it again, ever, is to write in and say how interesting the discussion is!

Geez.

Hi Cady!

Looks like we've narrowly averted that doom this time. Some others jumped onto the discussion and we're sort of continuing. Well, continuing down the same road as before.

Still, it has certainly been an interesting thread. Hopefully it will prove the exception and continue.

Hope you're doing well!
Mark

[edg176]

It is my understanding if you did find gold you wouldn't be discussing this at all. You would be showing us the gold.

LOL. Geez Jack, it's almost like you don't realize that plenty of people have gone to work out with Dan and his students and come back with glowing reports.

And Dan isn't the only one showing things now...

In this era of the internet and global travel, there's no excuse for ignorance.

And what do you mean by ''fah jing?" And how does it relate to postural stability?

[Cady Goldfield]

Hi Cady!

Looks like we've narrowly averted that doom this time. Some others jumped onto the discussion and we're sort of continuing. Well, continuing down the same road as before.

Still, it has certainly been an interesting thread. Hopefully it will prove the exception and continue.

Hope you're doing well!
Mark

Hi Mark. Long time, no see!
Just came in after an hour and a half of snow shoveling in a @#$& "winter wonderland." I hear you guys in West Virginia get your share of snow, too.
Yeah, the "discussion" will continue down the same road, ad nauseum, except for those who are conscientious enough to get out there and train in the stuff Dan is talking about, so they'll understand the topic and not just opine without hands-on experience to inform their opinions.

Hope to see you (and Ron -- "Mr. Too-Darned-Swamped-At-Work") again soon. But not right now... the roads are a mess after a two-day Nor'easter!

[Dan Harden]

Well Jack, considering me a miner- digging, further clarifies your ignorance of what is going on. The book bears testament to what I, and others already know. We're not looking-for gold we have it and we are working it.
Aiki is the great treasure. But men have it Jack. Some, in spades. Just as Sagawa stole it at an early age, others have gotten it too. As I said earlier the days are gone where a teacher can show up and do a seminar and claim everything is proprietary and unique. These days, just now..chances are he will be standing, in a room, with men who have felt others do what he can do..sometimes better.
Daito ryu can stand among the great internal schools of the world. And it is head and shoulders above most Japanese arts...but that, only in the hands of certain, connected men (pun intended guys). What some of us are trying to do is to get the Asians to fnally open up and teach. Something which they increasingly admit they have not been doing with us. In many ways allot of people have been had. Hence the quotes from the book.
In any art, claiming YOUR method is secret and will not be shown to YOUR people until you decide is perfectly fine. Just don't be surprised if they go elsewhere to get it without telling you. Come to think of it, that already has been done by teachers and Shihan in the art already.
And currently there are a number of students of the highest ranking Daito ryu Shihans in the world now training on their own under various men to get it. See, just as their teachers advised...they are THINKING. What they are thinking is "I am going where someone will actually teach me." And they are staying with the art. Just as some well known Shihan did in the past as well.
The lesson here is a Japanese one. Obey..show up, then shut-up and go steal it elsewhere.
Chances are...your teacher did as well..and never told you that either.


The only real difference between you and many readers here, Jack is that ..you don't know, that you don't know what we're talking about. There are dozens of men in the Aiki arts who now do and are training.
Cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Hi Cady
Took me and Jake three hours to shovel out and plow .....And Mark was going to come train this weekend...HAH!!!
me

[Cady Goldfield]

Well, you have 9 acres, and I have a 60'X115' little urban nook!
Good thing Mark stayed home, or I'll bet you'd have made him shovel. You know, like those Shihan who tell their students that "shovel snow" will instill some Very Special martial knowledge!

[Mark Murray]

Hi Mark. Long time, no see!
Just came in after an hour and a half of snow shoveling in a @#$& "winter wonderland." I hear you guys in West Virginia get your share of snow, too.
Yeah, the "discussion" will continue down the same road, ad nauseum, except for those who are conscientious enough to get out there and train in the stuff Dan is talking about, so they'll understand the topic and not just opine without hands-on experience to inform their opinions.

Hope to see you (and Ron -- "Mr. Too-Darned-Swamped-At-Work") again soon. But not right now... the roads are a mess after a two-day Nor'easter!

Well, some parts got ice and snow, but mostly, down where I live ... we got nothing. Some snow would have been nice. Instead, we got lots of rain and cancellations from flooding. In December. *sigh* Even today, it's just now starting to cover the grass.

Back to the discussion, every now and then some good tidbit of info comes through. But, yeah, I'll have to try to drag Ron away from his work and get us up there.

Mark