Body Conditioning

[Ron Tisdale]

Oh boy...
Hey all, worked Saturday and Sunday...even from my parents' house! Yuk...sick of working.

Anywho...Dan, just ignore the JackMan...like so many others. Same old....

Best,
Ron

[lucky1899]

All,

Too much talk and not enough action (although this is what has been in so many of the posts in this thread), I'm calling for execution of the word.

Dan,

With all due respect, host a seminar, let those who want to feel, come and have a dose. Then we can come back and comment on whether it's the real thing.

I guarantee I will be there.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Andrew,

Dan doesn't do seminars. Those of us that were interested already went to see him. He's a great guy, and I highly recommend the time and effort to check out what he does.

Best,
Ron

[Mark Murray]

All,

Too much talk and not enough action (although this is what has been in so many of the posts in this thread), I'm calling for execution of the word.

Dan,

With all due respect, host a seminar, let those who want to feel, come and have a dose. Then we can come back and comment on whether it's the real thing.

I guarantee I will be there.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

Andrew,
Why would you be there? In all seriousness. Dan has made offers to come and feel this to a great many people. Why haven't you taken him up on this already? I'm curious as to why it would take a seminar format rather than a smaller, in-person, format to prompt you to go? Again, it's all serious curiosity. I posted a similar question on AikiWeb and received cricket's song for replies. And not only going to Dan, but Sigman, Rob John, and Akuzawa. Akuzawa had two seminars recently. Did you attend? If not, why not?

Really, I cannot fathom this mindset. Maybe I never will. All four of the above are open and willing to show (last time I checked. Things change though). It's been just over a year since I met Dan. Not even a year since I met Sigman and Rob John. In that time I have seen countless people demand seminars and meetings and also people asking for seminars and meetings. And only a handful have ever gone. But, in the past year alone, all those that attended Akuzawa's seminar or met Dan or Sigman have all (to a person) expressed the great things learned, shown, and how willing and open Akuzawa, Rob, Sigman and Dan have been.

Erg, now I'm way off topic. Sorry to the readers of the thread. I'll quit here.

Mark

[E. Johnstone]

Hi Andrew,

Dan doesn't do seminars. Those of us that were interested already went to see him. He's a great guy, and I highly recommend the time and effort to check out what he does.

Best,
Ron

Hello! Just want to second Ron's post...and to add that there is plenty of action to back up Dan's posts. Make a trip up to check him out.

[lucky1899]

I'm in Houston, TX and if I haven't been to a seminar (Dan's or anyone elses), it's not due to lack of desire. I just got back from two weeks in Japan where I visited three dojos; I have gone to Aikido, Hapkido and Judo seminars here in Houston. I've been to seminars in Virginia, Louisiana, Pennsylvania and Austin in the past 18 months. In addition, I train at least three days a week. I've never had the opportunity to go to one of Dan's seminars (or dojo) because I didn't know about it nor had I ever heard about Dan's knowledge of the arts. I have visited Aikiweb but do not normally subscribe or read posts there.

Again, it is with all due respect I make this request. And you're right, it doesn't have to be a seminar. I can just drop by Dan's dojo so someone (or Dan) please give me the address and his contact information and I will arrange with Dan to come by.

Respectfully,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[Dan Harden]

Hey guys....Merry Christmas to all. Hope everyones making progress!

Hi Andrew
Just write me a P.M. here. Training up here can be fun, you may meet people who have or do currently train with top (recognized) shihans in DR, Aikido, and other arts including Koryu, Judo, BJJ,...all kinds of stuff. It's a chance to maybe feel something unusual by way of power and sensitivity and then get actually shown how to develop it. What you feel may be familiar, maybe not. We will see I guess. Some who train with me, can go from Aiki-age/sag to fure aiki...to submission grappling, to 6 oz gloves.
I understand that time is important to people so I suggest talking to some of the guys who have written in here, they can introduce you to others, just so you can make sure I...am not a waste...of yours.
FWIW I charge nothing, as I'm just trying to help, but I don't have much time to waste on those who don't train either.
Happy holidays
Dan

[Jim Sorrentino]

Greetings All,

The martial tanren needed has largley been ignored. And other arts where it is absolutley essential- it is not taught too much later. In Karate, Ushiro is a good example. The many Western guys flexing through sanchin...is not. All based on...by their own admission...which cultures teaching? China.Dan

Will anyone offer a definition that we may use to determine whether a movement is or isn't tanren? In the quote above, Dan seems to imply that Ushiro-sensei's sanchin kata is tanren, but sanchin as practiced by "Western guys" is not. What is the difference in the manner of practice? By the way, does it appear to others that Dan is also suggesting in this quote that kata can be tanren if practiced properly? (Dan, is this what you meant to say?)

Is there something that makes a solo practice (such as funakogi undo, shiko, or subri) tanren? Is there a way to engage in a partnered practice (such as aikijujutsu or aikido) that will make the practice tanren?

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

[Joshua Lerner]

Greetings All,



Will anyone offer a definition that we may use to determine whether a movement is or isn't tanren? In the quote above, Dan seems to imply that Ushiro-sensei's sanchin kata is tanren, but sanchin as practiced by "Western guys" is not. What is the difference in the manner of practice? By the way, does it appear to others that Dan is also suggesting in this quote that kata can be tanren if practiced properly? (Dan, is this what you meant to say?)

Is there something that makes a solo practice (such as funakogi undo, shiko, or subri) tanren? Is there a way to engage in a partnered practice (such as aikijujutsu or aikido) that will make the practice tanren?

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

Hi Jim,

I realize you are trying to engage Dan, but I thought I would throw this in the mix anyway.

I would suggest that the question of whether or not something is tanren isn't a particularly useful question to ask. What is more useful, or at least more interesting to me, is whether or not something is effective tanren. Doing 1000 bad, mindless suburi a day could still be considered tanren. If you don't have any real idea of what you are trying to accomplish by doing them, they are just useless, and hopefully not harmful, tanren. If you are assuming that just by doing them, you will gain skills that will transfer over into actual swordwork or empty hand work, or even chopping wood, then you are engaging in really ineffective and probably counterproductive tanren.

So instead of offering a definition that we may use to determine whether a movement is or isn't tanren, I'll offer a definition that we may use to determine whether a movement is or isn't effective tanren. And that would be - it is effective if it produces the results that you are trying to achieve by doing it. Which, of course, is obvious. But then you have to know what it is that you are actually trying to achieve, which is not always so obvious.

Josh

[Dan Harden]

Good point Josh
My main point in posting wasn't to tell anyone what to do or how to do it. Not interested on an internet forum. And there are some people I hope never learn how to do any of it the right way.
First and foremost I was hoping to bring forward something which I know to be true, but which is publicly and routinely denied or publicly diminished in value. And secondly to use someone from within the art to support the claim. That is, that the heart of Aiki…is solo training, not the art’s kata. Further, that the heart of aiki tanren is to create a strengthened zero balance or central equilibrium and that this is what the Asians referred to as training to be strong. Then, to point out that Sagawa was stating-that this, the heart of Daito ryu, the power behind the art, is specifically, held back from students, and that he was told he shouldn't reveal it.
I fully expected it to be denied, even to see Sagawa discredited and his words marginalized.

Tanren
It is my opinion that no one is really ever going to “discover” how to do this on their own. It’s unnatural and very counter intuitive. Of course later-on one can add and innovate, because the basics helped the adept to identify and intuit the correct things, but the goals have to be shown, first. And In/yo ho not only is not going to be “stumbled onto” anytime soon, it is exceedingly difficult to do even when you know what to do.

Trying to build the body through Kata?
I’d just point to, hundreds of posts on Aikiweb, support from others teaching the same things about solo tanren, hundreds getting out to feel it and their support of what they discovered -solo tanren, and finally Sagawa, not only saying the exact same thing, but strengthening it by stating it was a looong held secret. And that kata- won’t cut it, and never did. That solo tanren is thee source, and Takeda told him never to reveal it.
Add to that his statement that he would never teach foreigners as it would give us an advantage. Further that he made the point that there is an old, long accepted belief in bujutsu that you held this stuff back.
Anyone saying “I’ll just trust my teacher” or “I prefer to learn this stuff through the traditional manner.” Or thinking “We can learn it through kata.” Is fine.,To each is own. I say go for it. Nothing would please certain folks more than to see more white guys doing that very thing. Personally, I’ve seen more and more guys, some teachers, others master level teachers of these arts, standing there flat on their feet, helpless to do much of anything against those who train…tanren.
Kata training? I’ll see ya in twenty years.
Happy holidays
Dan

[Budd]

Yup, I have to echo my own encouragement to others to just go feel what people are doing. I've met nothing but nice and open folks - provided you hold up your end and keep doing the work to train it. And like anything worthwhile, it's not necessarily going to be spoon fed to you on your terms.

[Dan Harden]

Hi Jim,

snip... I'll offer a definition that we may use to determine whether a movement is or isn't effective tanren. And that would be - it is effective if it produces the results that you are trying to achieve by doing it. .... But then you have to know what it is that you are actually trying to achieve, which is not always so obvious.
Josh

Silly me for not stressing that more. I wonder how many know what it is they are actually trying to do in any of these arts in the first place. Maybe they know what they want it to look like, and what they are trying to mimick, whether it be aikijujutsu, aikido, taiji or Xing-I-but do they really know what makes things actually work? How many are trying to find it/feeeeel it through rote repitition? So, how can they find what...it...is that they are trying to accomplish in their tanren. Much less thee most effective means to get ...it.
Very...good point, Josh
Happy holidays
Dan

Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi

[Jim Sorrentino]

Hi Josh,

I realize you are trying to engage Dan, but I thought I would throw this in the mix anyway.

With all due respect, you are mistaken. I was trying to move the discussion forward by drawing out a definition of an apparently essential term. The source of the definition is not as interesting to me as the definition itself.

I would suggest that the question of whether or not something is tanren isn't a particularly useful question to ask. What is more useful, or at least more interesting to me, is whether or not something is effective tanren. Doing 1000 bad, mindless suburi a day could still be considered tanren. If you don't have any real idea of what you are trying to accomplish by doing them, they are just useless, and hopefully not harmful, tanren. If you are assuming that just by doing them, you will gain skills that will transfer over into actual swordwork or empty hand work, or even chopping wood, then you are engaging in really ineffective and probably counterproductive tanren.

Without a definition of tanren itself, this doesn't advance the discussion. Why could "1,000 bad, mindless suburi a day" still be considered tanren? Isn't that like Dan's example of "Western guys flexing through sanchin" (which he seemed to suggest as an example of something that is not tanren)? A definition would help.

Sincerely,

Jim

[Woody]

Tanren
It is my opinion that no one is really ever going to “discover” how to do this on their own. It’s unnatural and very counter intuitive. Of course later-on one can add and innovate, because the basics helped the adept to identify and intuit the correct things, but the goals have to be shown, first. And In/yo ho not only is not going to be “stumbled onto” anytime soon, it is exceedingly difficult to do even when you know what to do.

Dan,
I am really interested in meeting the individual that taught you tanren. Would you be kind enough to reveal that information? Also, do you know of somebody here on the west coast (preferably southern California )that could teach tanren as you know it?
Thank You,

[Joshua Lerner]

Hi Josh,


With all due respect, you are mistaken. I was trying to move the discussion forward by drawing out a definition of an apparently essential term. The source of the definition is not as interesting to me as the definition itself.

Without a definition of tanren itself, this doesn't advance the discussion. Why could "1,000 bad, mindless suburi a day" still be considered tanren? Isn't that like Dan's example of "Western guys flexing through sanchin" (which he seemed to suggest as an example of something that is not tanren)? A definition would help.

Sincerely,

Jim

Hi Jim,

I was assuming that most people understand tanren to mean anything that is done to forge yourself, to strengthen yourself. But I usually don't use the word, so I haven't thought much about it. How do you define it?

Josh