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Thread: Body Conditioning

  1. #61
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    Dan,
    I am really interested in meeting the individual that taught you tanren. Would you be kind enough to reveal that information? Also, do you know of somebody here on the west coast (preferably southern California )that could teach tanren as you know it?
    Thank You,
    Ricky
    I don't know of anyone who teaches this stuff openly. Haven't you been reading? You are going to have to join a traditional ryu, forge relationships, prove yourself through travel and hard work, and if they'll have you, maybe, just maybe you will be taught. Every man has his own path.
    There are some woderful people in South Cal. P.M. here if you would like some suggestions.
    Cheers
    Dan

  2. #62
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    If you remember my first couple of posts you will notice that Dan, Mr. Harden, met quickly my unpretentious post with absolute pretentiousness, rudeness, and distain as a response to me. If you re-read the posts you may recognize this tactic as it is a common defensive maneuver (threatened to exposure) that earmarks those in poor quality or understand (deficiency of acclaimed authority, mastery) which they speak on authority. The response is negative and seemingly taken personally as an affront to his authority of the matter. This defensive posture was further reinforced with following exchanges by Mr. Hardening.

    It is easy to perform martial arts tricks and assign these tricks with a vague label or reference them from a master practitioner, a popular form of imitation and plagiarizing. This act is not unlike those of poor quality CMists of old who preformed such tricks and attributed such abilities to that of chi, or the supernatural superstitious power they proclaimed to command to an audience. When in fact these ambiguous stage parlor tricks which are, and still, simple acts of physics hardly applicable in combat. This confuses physics with superstition and supernatural. The famous Jing Wu assoc./school mission was to eliminate such traditional superstitious conceptions of CMA and establish soundly without trickery of the past that confused and degraded CMAists, based CMA on modern science. The moral of this story in my imo is a valuable lesson, an instrument in gauging the resulting effects of the discussion content proclaimed by Mr. Hardening, (which if defined by Mr. Harden in accordance to that of the master he references as requested -I believe he is unable to define and instead maintains ambiguity and vagueness)referencing a concept originally put forth by a well known JMAs authority is probably nothing more then qi gong( to align with Harden's perception of CIMA) in its original purpose created to fill a need to improvement the body's condition- We in the West call it exercise. A concept originally put forth by a well known master and authority.

    My contention is with how the concepts are being proclaimed or disseminated (if you like), on authority by someone who isn’t recognized with mastery of ability, a person who seems to assembles a collection of principles isolated from various arts of several areas causing confusion, and possible misleading information. Something in CMA, as I was taught, is not highly regarded. Mr. Harden’s MA background as he indicated in this thread is a disconnected set of principles and concepts; that is principles and concepts detached or out of context from various MA systems, and in this case the master himself. Here again such principles and concepts isolated from the systems and those qualified, and who mastered them provides and is subject to personal interpretation by those who have not reached mastery. And when proclaimed in voice and in action they are not complete in form or function. Thus, leading to misunderstanding of what others are or are not doing, and adding further confusion to the subject. Very much like a know-it-all freshman in college in any field of study who lacks the complete training in that field and as enough information to be dangerous in his proclamations from his Professor or the material taken from a Professor he has never met or attended that Professor’s class. In addition, to my analogy of a miner with gold rush fever taken by fool's gold. This may be the very reason for the vague and ambiguious replys to some prudent and common questions.

    I am frankly disappointed that Mr. Harden (I have no doubt he has some assemblance of skill like so many thousands of others in MA, that level is not mastery am sure) chooses such a path to respond defensively to those prudent and common questions. Questions that arose out of his authority and referencing on ideas that he proclaims and discusses in his authority. Sometimes, sadly, I guess it is required to read between the lines and let sleeping dogs lie, when it is water underneath the bridge; to re-mix metaphors

    IMO, I am sure he is capable of many MA feats and holds knowledge other don't have or seek. Therefore, I will conceed his skill and knowledge much greater then mine, thus there is no reason to accend any further or engage in further discussion with Mr. Harden. Basically, the fact is he simply isn't the leading authority on the subject (despite that he discusses it with authority as he has demonstrated in this thread). Unfortunately, we all can't be at the top. [Chorus] When being....
    Last edited by Samurai Jack; 19th December 2007 at 02:35. Reason: To mind my "P"s and "Q"s :)

  3. #63
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    Thumbs down Just a simple response to Mr. Robinson...

    Rather than refute point by point, just a couple of simple things-
    1) Have you trained w/him?
    2) We are all a bunch of names w/out connection to you, but is it possible that those of us who can attest (in my case, feeling things a like 11 + years ago, he has no doubt refined since) to him having something might not all be chucklemuffins? Some of us may have at least seen a block (if not actually been around it once or twice) and maybe, just maybe, know the difference 'twixt someone who's faking it w/some 'ki trick' nonsense and actual body skills for taijutsu.
    3) Appeals to authority are fine in the abstract, but what are we discussing here? If a skill-set is transmissible, then doesn't that provide some basis for authority coming from being able to replicate, then integrate and finally apply naturally the crucial elements?

    Bruised ego aside (and I really got no dog in this fight, but Dan's been very kind to me), can we get back on topic now?

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Happy holidays
    Dan
    Hi Dan,

    Sorry, I forgot to say . . . Happy Holidays back at 'ya.

    Josh

  5. #65
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenkyusha View Post
    Rather than refute point by point, just a couple of simple things-
    1) Have you trained w/him?
    2) We are all a bunch of names w/out connection to you, but is it possible that those of us who can attest (in my case, feeling things a like 11 + years ago, he has no doubt refined since) to him having something might not all be chucklemuffins? Some of us may have at least seen a block (if not actually been around it once or twice) and maybe, just maybe, know the difference 'twixt someone who's faking it w/some 'ki trick' nonsense and actual body skills for taijutsu.
    3) Appeals to authority are fine in the abstract, but what are we discussing here? If a skill-set is transmissible, then doesn't that provide some basis for authority coming from being able to replicate, then integrate and finally apply naturally the crucial elements?

    Bruised ego aside (and I really got no dog in this fight, but Dan's been very kind to me), can we get back on topic now?

    Be well,
    Jigme
    I am sorry if I hurt peoples feeling who train with him. I delinated my concerns I think pretty clearly. Such concerns do have something to do with the topic.

    Dan interjection in this thread was self-promotion and authority based. When asked to provide concrete details, to expand on a concept he presented in vague and ambiguous terms, those who asked where met with rudness and silence. I don't see where the bruised ego or training with him has anything to do with the topic. The matter here is the avoidance and if he is speaking under authority of the organization that he cited, and if he isn't then that is an issue, or any organization that holds the rights to aikijujutsu, or is he simply speaking on his own authory. It is my understanding he is not a member or is authorized by any legitimate aikijujutsu organization. This is where the problem is for me are we getting correct authentic information or is it his own summations based on his transient background.

  6. #66
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Jack
    Unfortunately for you the crowd you are talking to, while we do not all agree on this tough topic, is more educated than you are. "Hurting their feelings?" You don't know enough or are informed enough to have enough weight to hurt or even give them pause. They, on the other hand are trying to help...you! You opened with the admission that when you first posted here on E-budo you fell flat on your face..get smart...change. Here I'll help. Budo people almost never learn anything on the surface. That much is obvious to most Asians, and they expect it, unfortunately it's not to some westerners. You will learn more by rooting around and checking things out privately.

    As for your idea of self promotion?
    If I am self promoting I would like to see where my "gain" is. From my view it has come at a substantial loss to me. The only ones gaining anything are those who are out training with me and others they have found who know what they need to do. They know everyword I am saying is true...and if you start reading for once, you'd they are telling you they have discovered something. Talk about that!

    As for my authority? It's in what I know and can do. I speak with confidance for good reason. As for those who are just now talking with you? What you don't realize is that many of the people who train with me did not come to me as new students to learn budo. Some are teachers who have their own schools, some even came to challenge the very ideas you are now reading and to "test" me. They are people who have trained and do train with some of the highest ranking Daito ryu authorities in existence today as well Aikido and Koryu master level teachers. They are more than able to judge truth appropriately. So, I have met significant resistence, and now years later the support of some surprisingly well informed folks. Some of whom cannot publicly speak to the issue. I... am on my own. My authority, Jack...is in my hands.
    Here's an old Bujutsu saying for ya.
    "Do not look to authority for truth. look to truth for authority."
    now...play that up against Sagawas admissions of NOT teaching. Of by choice holding back what he deemed to be the secret of the art...tanren, and that Takeda told him to do so. I am telling you... I have stood in rooms with master level teachers telling everyone there to do one thing and having him show me what was really going on. Sagawa, finally admitted what has been happening to us for years now.
    In the end it's what you can do...that is how much you truly know. The rest is faith, and hope in your teachers that they are teaching. Sometimes that is wise, other times, not so much. If you are currently in Budo. The underlying truth of it is being laid out in front of you. If you are not currently training this way, there are people passing you by..and gaining the one true power that binds us all.
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 19th December 2007 at 13:23.

  7. #67
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Lerner View Post
    Hi Dan,

    Sorry, I forgot to say . . . Happy Holidays back at 'ya.

    Josh
    I'll be seein ya soon enough anyway. I miss you guys soo much.
    Dan

  8. #68
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    Default Pm

    Dan,

    I sent you a PM requesting information. Please reply at your convenience. Thank you.

    Regards,

    A. De Luna

  9. #69
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Murray View Post
    Back to being on-topic, just where did Takeda learn his "aiki" skills? Knowing that might help to answer the question of is there other aiki besides Daito ryu aiki?
    As a matter of historical curiosity maybe. Ellis is publishing some interesting ideas. IMO none of it means diddly to those on the ground training. Hell, it doesn't mean anything to those in the art now who really can't do squat with it. Most are going to continue to try to "do" things to people through "feeeling" it from more kata for the thousadnth time.
    How is the knowledge of Takeda's teacher going to matter...When many folks in Budo...with a teacher... still can't do much of anything against real resistence? Just who is teaching what...to whom?
    Without the true teaching, the essence of Daito ryu being shown to them- which is a profoundly connected body, with a strengthened central equilibrium, gained through solo tanren- students are not going to make Aiki happen in the first place. It will be parts and pieces slowly gained-if at all. For many it will forever remain in their waza and in their hand shapes and body positioning and their shoulders will be too involved, and everyone will be focused on Maai and timing, and waza and every other thing that is incidental to real control.
    Learning the outer...to capture the inner...is the slow boat to China.
    Ask your teacher for the truth, If they won't teach you, smile at them...to their face... like they have to you...and go get it from someone else. Stay in the art though and help others. We need to start getting smart and think for ourselves and help each other. Hell, I know of Japanese shihan and Menkyo's who went elsewhere for help and their students were so brainwashed they didn't go with them in oder to learn. They thought "Our teacher is the only one smart enough to glean what is essential from that for me to know in our art."
    Happy holidays
    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 19th December 2007 at 13:54.

  10. #70
    Dan Harden Guest

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    To those writing me privately. Get a clue.
    Sending short requests like.."send me the city and street address of your dojo and I'll make arrangments to come according to my schedule...
    or, ...Can tell me who your teacher are so I can go there...
    Why should I come and train there?...what do you teach...how much do you charge?
    Or even ...Can you tell me where to go, in ____________this area, cause I want to learn
    This is not the way to do things. I give more care in my replies then most do in their requests. Where were you raised? Introduce yourself, be expansive and questioning, state why you are looking for something, what you think or hope to gain.
    Listen up, even if one doesn't really care about being polite in the first place, and both feels and is expressing dripping disdain and dismissal...be a budo guy...pretend, and lie... on the surface, in order to gain what you want.
    I hear it's perfectly acceptable, even considered wise and waay cool in some circles.
    In either case if for some strange reason you actually want a reply, and honestly are thinking of facing me on a mat. Ya might want to question both why I would respond in the first place, and the nature of any possible meeting. Not all are driven by profit, not all will freely share with just anyone.

    Dan

  11. #71
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    As a matter of historical curiosity maybe. Ellis is publishing some interesting ideas. IMO none of it means diddly to those on the ground training.
    I was thinking in regards to all the people who have questioned whether this "aiki" is related to "internal skills" or related to that other "aiki" or related to CIMA, etc.

    If you think about it, if Takeda learned through someone who had some Chinese martial background skills, it certainly deflates some people's argument that DR aiki is different/unique. Of course, the flip side is also true, if Takeda learned from someone who had mostly Japanese training in some other art, then those people would use that as proof that DR aiki and CIMA internals are different.

    So, yeah, historically it can be an important piece of information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Hell, it doesn't mean anything to those in the art now who really can't do squat with it. Most are going to continue to try to "do" things to people through "feeeling" it from more kata for the thousadnth time.
    How is the knowledge of Takeda's teacher going to matter...When many folks in Budo...with a teacher... still can't do much of anything against real resistence? Just who is teaching what...to whom?

    Happy holidays
    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi
    You know I don't disagree. After feeling the skills, it's hard to not accept that things are related, that technique driven work isn't the path to aiki, and solo training is very important.

    Eh, maybe we can discuss more in detail over dinner one day.

    Mark

  12. #72
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    Hi Josh,
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Lerner View Post
    I was assuming that most people understand tanren to mean anything that is done to forge yourself, to strengthen yourself. But I usually don't use the word, so I haven't thought much about it. How do you define it?
    I apologize for my delayed reply.

    I'm in the same boat as you: I don't usually use the word. In my martial arts training (Uechi-ryu karatedo and aikido), my teachers have made only glancing references to it. I regard it as a process of forging and strengthening the body and spirit for martial purposes, through the mindful repetition of specific movements and stances. It may involve an apparatus (such as a suburito or a weight), a fixed physical reference (such as a wall or a plumb line), or even another person working with "cooperative resistance" (as in Uechi-ryu's kotekitae [arm-rubbing and pounding, leg pounding] or aikido's kokyu tanden ho).

    And as you said in an earlier post, it's crucial to have an idea of what you want the exercise to produce. Since that is not often obvious, especially to most of us when we begin our study, we look to our teachers for clues. What can they do? How do they move?

    Jim

  13. #73
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    Default Getting a clue...

    Dan,

    To assume that you have something to teach me or show me is...well, what it is. I'm not challenging you on the mat because I have nothing to prove to you or even prove to myself.

    I was raised in Texas and I learned how to read English in school. You previously wrote [paraphrasing] that teachers should openly share knowledge, that the forging of relationships and devoting years is a waste of time because you have the secret to make all the skills for aiki exist.

    Why waste my time introducing myself???? I'm not looking to establish authority, I'm looking to establish truth. Truth has no name or history, it JUST IS. Who I am doesn't matter. I'm not stating anything on these boards about my skills or knowledge...YOU ARE. Or more appropriately, simply paraphrasing Sagawa's book over and over as if you wrote it. If you don't want to be questioned, then lurk, as I have for YEARS on many boards.

    I'm not looking to gain anything. I do it because it is my way. I meet and train with everyone. It would cost me a lot more money than it will you to pay you a visit. I'm looking to experience the arts, maybe something I haven't experienced before (although doubtful certainly possible).

    If you don't want to show me then don't respond. I was a good fighter long before I registered on e-budo.

    You should refrain from speaking on Daito Ryu or about Daito Ryu practitioners as if you have TRUTH about aiki and others don't. I've asked you politely, openly, to show me and now you've written than I'm rude because I didn't introduce myself. I don't want to be your friend; I just want to train. I want to know if you really can reproduce the AIKI I have felt from Kondo, Okamoto, Goldberg, Kato, Hasegawa, and many others.

    Good luck in your training.

    Regards,

    A. De Luna
    Daito Ryu

  14. #74
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    Dude, you just dropped yourself from the list.

    Why is it that MANNERS are so hard to understand???

    Dan doesn't have a public dojo...if you are fortunate enough to spend sometime with him it's because he's basically invited you into his home.

    I don't invite no one into my home without an introduction. And I'm pretty sure it works that way in Texas.

    And if you are rude...forget it. You ain't gettin in.

    Best,
    Ron

  15. #75
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    Default Could we return to the discussion, please?

    Hi Ron,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale View Post
    Dude, you just dropped yourself from the list.
    Maybe you should leave that to the moderator. I really don't want this thread to drift, but I met Andrew at my dojo when we hosted a seminar with Roy Goldberg-sensei. Not that Andrew needs me to do so, but I will vouch for his manners. Andrew was consistently courteous and gracious, on and off the mat, in his interactions with me and the other seminar participants.

    In this instance, Dan asked Andrew to contact him by private message to discuss a future meeting. Andrew did. Apparently, Dan was not happy with Andrew's PM (and perhaps the PMs from others), and chose to air his displeasure with a private message publicly. Andrew took offense at being "scolded" publicly for his PM --- as many of us would, I suspect.

    Private messages were meant to be private. If I'm wrong about this, please contact me privately.

    Jim

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