Body Conditioning

[Dan Harden]

Please delete the previous post- this is the edited version.


Hi Mark
Jack and others like him are "allowed" for a reason. But come on, these guys are fun when you get them in your hands. I've not met one who could do much anything past belly aching. It's why they get apoplectic hearing from others who state flatly that they can do and..understand. It is difficult to fathom that statement as it can only come from rank and recognition in their minds. Its impossible any other way. Its just... not ...possible. Budo is always going to have these guys. Even their arguments lack cohesion. They miss the obvious. the many people who have already seen and felt the masters who have seen and felt us or some masters who have felt us as well. No one can have skill, particularly high levle skills and not be known or well indoctrinated. The two cannot exist as one, in their minds. Even though the entire history of all martial arts in all cultures are chock full of stories of that very thing. Many in the arts are incapable of seeing, or even making smart assumptions past surface stuff and they make up the body of the student populations in these arts.
Anyway your points are well made. Those "in the know" know, and many of us all know each other or "are once removed" from experience through trusted friends. Aslo that there are many people out there doing the things we are discusing here, from other sources than me. Good comment. I think it also goes unoticed that most of those reading here have trained with and felt many, many, times, some of the highest ranked DR, Aikido, and Koryu folks in the world. Some who train this stuff are STILL active students of the Kodokai, Roppokai, Mainline, and other Koryu, under the master level teachers. While some of us have been less than impressed at some, very impressed by others, no one is going to say it. Or come out of the closet. They are being, Japanese budo men; smiling, and getting the stuff where they can. On the net many times we are talking past each other or using some as foils to speak to the larger crowd who are thinking and calling around like good budo guys would.
In Budo...one thing remains-what can ...you... do

Some interesting points for people within the arts.

What is kuzushi is at the source and what causes it.
Within the model of DR what allows it to be maintained while another action takes place in an instant.
Past the “hand shape” ideas- just what energy …is…rising? What energy is actually sinking…how?
What is Fure aiki? How does it work?
What turns to take someone up and out? What remains?
Just what is it that aiki does to “capture” in the DR sense?
What would or could you do to stop Aiki from capturing you?
What could Sagawa have meant by having to change the body? What on earth could changing the body have to do with Aiki.
What did he mean by having to prepare the body?
What does it truly mean to move from the center? What is moving what?
Were everyone not able to use techniques, or timing or shapes of any kind , what and how with your own knowledge could you create aiki with some sort of force coming at you?
Why would say…. power strikes from no distance…be the same as aiki age. What are heavy hands?
Just what do you truly know that you can define past some…feeling?
Why is it that kokyu ho, Aiki age and peng jin are all the same?.
Can you rocket someone up off the ground with your aiki age? If not, why not?
Just what stops throw attempts by planting the attackers feet? How and what is it that manipulates his weight and intent?
All of these answers are within DR. And they are all attained, everyone of them, from solo training, then paired practice.
There are some-not many at all-including those reading in Japan, who can answer everyone of these. But they are not allowed. Others have various levels of "not having a clue past a certain feeeling" when they do it.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Hi Dan,
That is a hell of a list of questions that, imo, would make interesting topics for discussion on the forum. Although we know from experience these type topics are difficult to discuss via words and therefore are shunned by many. To bad as I enjoy the difficult technical discussions the most. The challenge of finding the right words to describe the what's and why's always help me solidify my understanding. Plus I occassionally find a pearl as I listen to another person struggle to put their understanding into words. The pearls are not so much instant understanding as they are new ways of viewing concepts and/or new concepts to explore in my own training. As you know real understanding only comes with the sweat of trial and error. Oh well, that is my Christmas wish.

Take care,

MJ

[Nathan Scott]

This thread has turned into a friggin mess. I have tomorrow off from work, so I'll try to manage this thread in some way that makes sense.

Dan - if you insist on publicly advising everyone on how to perform Daito-ryu techniques, I think readers are going to want to know what qualifies you to speak on the subject (ie: training experience and depth of initiation in DR). I'm not picking on you specifically, but this is the reason why most people don't try to explain how the techniques are supposed to be performed. If you just want to discuss your own methods, then have at it. I'll set up a thread for ya, or maybe John can put together a MMA/CMA forum.

In the meantime, keep it civil (all who are posting), or I will S-can this thread.

Regards,

[Samurai Jack]

Mr. Samurai,

Frankly this thread was moving along nicely until you poked your head out of your hole.

I hope that post is deleted in the clean up, if the thread isn't canned. The above quoted unprovoked personal attack in the post could have been PM. BTW, to set the record straight, if you go back in the thread you will see where Dan attacked me when I asked him a question concerning the topic, just as he attacked others who he invited to PM him, especially the on poster who had experince in aikijujutsu, who was awfully nice to him!?! I don't know why that came about either. I apologize for any extra work the moderator has to do as a result of my posting in the clean up. I do admit I was careless, reckless and thoughtless in that regard. If I can make a request, if any of my posts are to be deleted, what could be retained is essentially what your [Nathan] post #107 is saying. Thank you.

[Dan Harden]

Nathan
What I was discussing was the commonality of body training and what it does to bind all the arts together. The question was whether it was just the name or the method that was proprieary. You could say the nature of Aiki (or connection) and its use in jujutsu(or grappling) was the point of the thread.. Body training as the means and source to create connection is not exactly a revolutionary new idea or model in neither in Japan or China. It is very old, recorded and rarely spoken of. It is relevant to DR, CMA, Karate, all of them. It's what it "looks" like after that-that is proprietary. Further that the since the concept of Aiki is not Japanese- it came from China- and since most of the internal CMA incorporate jujutsu you have aiki-jujutsu...from China. It of course stands to reason that they have methods to train it as well..which surprise of surprises... is in solo work. I know solo work is taught, and so do you. Only recently have some teachers begun to finally speak of it publicly. And Sagawa being willing to speak up or ..fess up in such detail will help students of all the Asain arts...and most pointedly one as secretive as DR as well. That he finally stated what others have stated about the Asian arts- that the truth isn't in the arts waza, it's in the body-is telling. And none of that... has anything to do with me. Nothing at all. Nor does it reveal or discuss the arts waza.
Overall, if protectionism prevails, and the truth is even further denied, if even Sagawa can now be alluded to as not doing "real" DR Aiki, and being off the path of Takeda...then its pretty much a waste of time to talk at all. People are pretty much dug-in and following in lock-step.

The thread- is- a mess. You can S...can all my posts or the whole thing as far as I'm concerned. If your personal take is that only those in DR can understand and do DR aiki, and everyone else is doing something different, then the only thing for you to do is to dump all of my comments off the forum as being...unrelated. I'm all for it. Please spare us all a MMA thread. Most of the guys training this way now behind the scenes are students of DR and Aikido. Just hit delete.
Merry Christmas
Dan

[Jeff Cook]

Guys, I just want to say this has been a fabulous discussion. Dan, I understand what you have been saying for eight pages, and I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

Jeff Cook

[Dan Harden]

_________________________________
Welcome!

This "aikijujutsu" section of e-budo is an academic-style discussion and archive forum, focusing on arts and traditions that incorporate aiki principles and methods specifically.

SUBJECT CRITERIA

In order to encourage discussion, styles and traditions that are gendai {post-Meiji} and/or not recognized formally as koryu will be accepted as topics for discussion (otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about, to be honest!). This includes arts using the names "aikibudo", "aikijutsu", "aikibujutsu", etc.

Nathan Scot
___________________________________________________


Hi Jeff
Well actually I have spent almost eight pages explaining nothing in detail, and doing not much else but quoting from a book on Daito ryu by Sagawa...which points to some interesting truths in other arts, and further helps explain the stories of martial art masters going off to the mountains to train alone and coming back with very unusual skills. Sagawa is another voice supporting a theory as to how and why that can be true. Sagawao was well recognized as being a giant in DR. Though some now suggest he was more of an MMA guy and not a DR man after all.

Review the quotes from Sagawa. He is extremely candid about what he was doing and why he lied about what he was teaching and what got held back. He openly stated it was the way it was done, and he was told to hold it back by Takeda. His words give everyone a window into both the driving force behind this magnificant art...and its selective teaching method.
1. The power in the art is not in its waza
2. The power is in training the body to change it and prepare it.
3. Teachers don't teach it but too only a select few.
4. He was told never to reveal it.

In the strangest, wierdest twist I have seen you have the most senior living exponent of the art explaining and making some sense of why only a few ended up with real power in the art of Daito ryu. It ties in perfectly with the idea of Takeda only giving it-by choice- to some well placed men/; Sagawa, Horikawa Taiso, Ueshiba, and Hisa. Where some arts gokui are nothing more than some strategies and others are a host of more waza. Perhaps Sagawa reveals that Daito Ryu's Gokui may be one of the most profound of all. His words are there to read. Are they to be denied? I think it's pretty clear that they might. His words and maybe even his own skills will now be marginalized as well for revealing it.
There are those...in the art...who know what Sagawa was saying is true, but that isn't going to help a public case or discussion. In fact his words will be denied by everyone; Those in the art who just simply haven't been taught, and truly don't know, so they of course say this cannot be true... those in the art who know and don't want it known, will marginalize and interpret Sagawa's words to mean nothing.
So in a sense I am citiing a man who was a legend in Daito ryu who, after stating what the source of aiki is.....after 80 years training it, apparently doesn't know aiki or what the established method of teaching it was either.

What remains for everyone;
What can you do?
What can you explain?
Why is it now and always was ...explainable?

Merry Christmas
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Hi Dan,
That is a hell of a list of questions that, imo, would make interesting topics for discussion on the forum. Although we know from experience these type topics are difficult to discuss via words and therefore are shunned by many. To bad as I enjoy the difficult technical discussions the most. The challenge of finding the right words to describe the what's and why's always help me solidify my understanding. Plus I occassionally find a pearl as I listen to another person struggle to put their understanding into words. The pearls are not so much instant understanding as they are new ways of viewing concepts and/or new concepts to explore in my own training. As you know real understanding only comes with the sweat of trial and error. Oh well, that is my Christmas wish.

Take care,

MJ

Well they are rhetorical really. They are questions for people to ask themselves. And if they don't have the answers, to find out why they don't have the answers. More than anything I think more of us need to think about our training,whatever that may be, what we are doing, and what we are actually being shown. In the end just get out there and feel. Remember, not long ago you were questioning all this as well.
There is a movement that I don't think can be stopped now. There are too many students of very high level teachers sneeking around to test out this theory.
First they realized..slam..."Thats what my teacher feels like"...sometimes, "That's better than my teacher."
Then when they were given tools to do it and then, shown how it can then be stopped....many were pissed off. Why? Think. How on earth could they go to see and train with different men, (one maybe is explainable, but several?).. none of whom are in their chosen art, and feel the gokui of their art? These are mostly-not all-people with many years in these arts. What they felt isn't logical, isn't true, or it is all is true.
And it is explainable.
So far, from a few sources, (includiing myself) I have tallied up various people that have gone to train and or feel this way of training the body. The arts include Daito ryu Mainline, Daito ryu Kodokai, Daito ryu Roppokai, Aikido Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Birenkai, Jiyushinkai, Saotmoe's line, various Koryu, BJJ, and MMA.
Their ranks include
1st Dan to 6th Dans
Shihan
Menkyo holders X 3
And all agree that this training is both profound and is key to their improving the way they do their arts.
I didn't say it-they did.
And it fits like a missing puzzle piece into any academic discussion of the Asain arts, including the aiki arts. First that it isn't being taught, second that it is real and profoundly changes the body and skill level of those practicing.Third it has a specifi rationale for whay it worls and what it is doing to the body of the adept and those who come in contact with it.
No one more eloquantly captured the idea than in Sagawa's comment
Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough..... They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi
Call it gendai tanren (tm) that has nothing at all to do with Daito ryu aiki, aikido, or anything else established.
Even Sagawa apparently doesn't know what aiki really is...how could anyone else. So this isn't___________ it's ____________. train this way and it will greatly improve your ___________.

Happy Holidays
Dan

[jdostie]

_________________________________
Welcome!

This "aikijujutsu" section of e-budo is an academic-style discussion and archive forum, focusing on arts and traditions that incorporate aiki principles and methods specifically.

_SUBJECT CRITERIA

In order to encourage discussion, styles and traditions that are gendai {post-Meiji} and/or not recognized formally as koryu will be accepted as topics for discussion (otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about, to be honest!). This includes arts using the names "aikibudo", "aikijutsu", "aikibujutsu", etc.

Nathan Scot
___________________________________________________


Hi Jeff
Well actually I have spent almost eight pages explaining nothing in detail, and doing not much else but quoting from a book on Daito ryu by Sagawa...which points to some interesting truths in other arts, and further helps explain the stories of martial art masters going off to the mountains to train alone and coming back with very unusual skills. Sagawa is another voice supporting a theory as to how and why that can be true. Sagawao was well recognized as being a giant in DR. Though some now suggest he was more of an MMA guy and not a DR man after all.

Review the quotes from Sagawa. He is extremely candid about what he was doing and why he lied about what he was teaching and what got held back. He openly stated it was the way it was done, and he was told to hold it back by Takeda. His words give everyone a window into both the driving force behind this magnificant art...and its selective teaching method.
1. The power in the art is not in its waza
2. The power is in training the body to change it and prepare it.
3. Teachers don't teach it but too only a select few.
4. He was told never to reveal it.

In the strangest, wierdest twist I have seen you have the most senior living exponent of the art explaining and making some sense of why only a few ended up with real power in the art of Daito ryu. It ties in perfectly with the idea of Takeda only giving it-by choice- to some well placed men/; Sagawa, Horikawa Taiso, Ueshiba, and Hisa. Where some arts gokui are nothing more than some strategies and others are a host of more waza. Perhaps Sagawa reveals that Daito Ryu's Gokui may be one of the most profound of all. His words are there to read. Are they to be denied? I think it's pretty clear that they might. His words and maybe even his own skills will now be marginalized as well for revealing it.
There are those...in the art...who know what Sagawa was saying is true, but that isn't going to help a public case or discussion. In fact his words will be denied by everyone; Those in the art who just simply haven't been taught, and truly don't know, so they of course say this cannot be true... those in the art who know and don't want it known, will marginalize and interpret Sagawa's words to mean nothing.
So in a sense I am citiing a man who was a legend in Daito ryu who, after stating what the source of aiki is.....after 80 years training it, apparently doesn't know aiki or what the established method of teaching it was either.

What remains for everyone;
What can you do?
What can you explain?
Why is it now and always was ...explainable?

Merry Christmas
Dan

I've been thinking about what Mr. Harden has been saying over the last several pages, and trying to remember something similar. I am not sure that this is the exact quote, but it's the correct context that I was thinking about. The following appears on Daito-Ryu.org, from an interview between Kondo Sensei and Stanley Pranin.

_"Naturally, the day before these my teacher would go over with me in detail about what he wanted me to teach on his behalf, and he always told me that I must not teach the true techniques that I had learned from him. Even in regard to the very first technique taught in Daito-ryu, ippondori, I was strictly prohibited from teaching the real version I had learned directly from Tokimune sensei, and was told to teach only the version of ippondori he always taught in his own Daitokan dojo." (http://www.daito-ryu.org/history4_eng.html)

I wonder how this compares with what we are hearing from Mr. Harden. As Mr. Harden says above that the "power is not in the waza" it may not be the same thing at all, but I thought I'd throw it out there . . .

[Nathan Scott]

Dan,

What I was discussing was the commonality of body training and what it does to bind all the arts together.

There has been a little of that, but pretty much every post you have in this thread makes reference to aiki (a Japanese word) and to DR or DR methods, which you are not willing to qualify. For the sake of clarification, my use of the term "proprietary" (exclusively owned) in regards to any art was to say (and I did say) that the *combination* of an arts principles are what becomes proprietary, not that "nobody else can do aiki except for those in DR" or that nobody else has some or all of the same principles.

The question posed in this thread related to aikijujutsu, which is a term originally coined by Daito-ryu. So are other arts doing AJJ? Who knows? You have to have a complete understanding of what DR's use of the term is, or for that matter, any other art that has started using the term since DR. Who on this forum is qualified to make the comparison? Exactly. So the answer is "I don't know, but there are surely arts out there that contain similar principles and/or methods".

... Body training as the means and source to create connection is not exactly a revolutionary new idea or model in neither in Japan or China.

Exactly, so what's the big deal?

The idea of "tanren" ( 鍛練 forging, training) and "tanden" ( 丹田 the center point of the body just below the navel) are quite common. You keep saying that nobody knows about these methods because our teachers want to keep them secret. Yes and no. In Japanese arts you are expected to stick around for a while and think a little bit. If you don't, then I guess there are a lot of secrets you won't get out from the training.

Tanren, training that is sometimes incorporated under the name of "Junan Taiso" ( 柔軟体操 ), is all over Japanese budo and something I made reference to in my unfinished 1999 essay on "Shugyo" HERE. In swordsmanship, Nakamura Taizaburo used to use a shaped 4x4 piece of wood for sword conditioning. In 2004 I demonstrated one of his exercises with this type of equipment, called a "tanren-bo" (forging wood), for an MPEG on my website HERE. Sure it improves your grip, but if you try to muscle the tanren-bo, you'll lose. I've also been using a set of three different weights of "tetsu-to" (iron rod swords) for many years in swinging exercises. There are antique tetsu-to examples that appear to be made of high carbon iron. Using these tetsu-to for striking would likely cause them to shatter, so that leads us to believe they were used only for solo conditioning exercises. I've also heard of "tetsu-yari", which is an iron spear featuring a taper from one end to the other. This provides good balance for swinging/spinning exercises. I was instructed by my sword teacher, Obata Toshishiro Sensei, NOT to use the shoulders for such swinging exercises, but that the swing must start from the lower abdomen (tanden). I was also taught to kiai during these swings (see previously linked MPEG). Jikishinkage-ryu if famous for their "furi-bo", a long and heavy wooden sword used for swinging practice. Jigen-ryu uses impact practice. Maniwa nen-ryu uses resistance practice.

The point is, not only is solo tanden practice extant in Japanese budo, but students who have formally studied under a qualified teacher for more than a few classes will eventually learn them. I speak of my own experiences to illustrate this point, as EVERY art I now study and have studied I've begun as a beginner white belt - regardless of ranks and licenses in other arts - and worked my way up through the ranks and levels of initiations. Personally, I've found it to pay off big time, as I can now build on the generations of R&D that so many others have already done, and tested in real conflicts. Why start over again and re-invent the wheel?

There are numerous references to Japanese arts teaching students to perform "1,000 cuts a day", or to perform impact-practice on yoko-gi and/or tate-gi (horizontal and vertical impact targets). Ueshiba can be seen in photos performing impact practice on a horizontal target on different occasions with his son Kisshomaru, Saito Morihiro, and a foreign student whose name I can't remember. Some aikido-ka strike car tires in an attempt to replicate this traditional target. I've used hay-bails in my own dojo for similar types of training (messy, but very effective).

All these exercise are designed primarily to condition your tanden, and I'd be surprised to find that the majority of senior exponents of their given art that participate in this type of training would be ignorant of this.

As far as empty-hand body conditioning, it is my understanding that new students to a koryu often learn jujutsu (body arts) first in order to begin conditioning the body correctly, so that by the time they learned weapons they would be well on the correct road to using their body correctly (tanden ryoku).

Breathing from the tanden? This is one of the first things I ever learned about martial arts when I was a kid. The martial arts most likely adapted this method of breathing from the various sects of Buddhism which teach breathing through the tanden during meditation. Japanese arts usually have kiai. I've heard some of my peers in other arts mock the use of kiai as being a useless attempt at scaring them, but is it possible there is more to it? I've observed that a given kata may contain quite a bit of "call and answer" type kiai, while the intended application of the techniques may not contain *any* (audible) kiai (ie: real fighting). So why practice kiai in kata only if you may not really use it? Yeah, to make sure you don't hold your breath, and to assist with synching your timing with your opponent. But proper kiai involves proper breathing from the tanden, and proper use of the tanden to produce the correct sounds. From what I've seen, kiai is the main tool used to teach tanden breathing and conditioning of the tanden, which is achieved during the practice of kata. The teacher, and even the student, can hear if the student is using their tanden correctly. So much for repetition of kata being worthless.

Famous swordsmen Yamaoka Tesshu taught his students that "The secrets of our school are all contained in the kata". Kata is and has been the primary instructional tool of Japanese budo, and there is no reason that anyone can't experience self-realizations through mindful and guided repetition of kata. Is it faster to have someone explain the principle to you? Sure. But you still have to develop basics and settle on a single operating/delivery system. Being able to perform unbendable arm type stuff in the dojo will only get you so far.

It is very old, recorded and rarely spoken of.

It is rarely spoken of in Japanese arts because of the emphasis on self-realization through study of kata and other training methods. If you study with a teacher long enough, they will answer most questions and guide you in the correct direction once they've seen you put forth your own effort first. But that takes studying an art long enough to ascend through levels of initiation. Dabbling will only get you so far.

Further that the since the concept of Aiki is not Japanese- it came from China- and since most of the internal CMA incorporate jujutsu you have aiki-jujutsu...from China.

Your opinion, which is based on what? Meeting unnamed exponents of other arts, who have unspoken levels of initiation in their own art(s)? Based on your own experience, which is always implied but never stated? This is the internet. None of us can feel your technique here, and most of us will not be flying out there so that we can better evaluate the value of your posts. On the internet, this kind of posting just comes off like self-hype.

Overall, if protectionism prevails, and the truth is even further denied, if even Sagawa can now be alluded to as not doing "real" DR Aiki, and being off the path of Takeda...then its pretty much a waste of time to talk at all. People are pretty much dug-in and following in lock-step.

It's not a waste of time if you talk about your own experiences without name dropping arts and terminology your not qualified to drop. It sounds like many people are interested in your methods. Why not use English to describe them since all this cultural stuff and historical stuff is irrelevant?

If your personal take is that only those in DR can understand and do DR aiki, and everyone else is doing something different...

That's not my opinion, but it doesn't sound like repeating myself is going to do any good. I'm saying stick to what you know and don't come here and berate those of us that choose to study under a teacher.

If any of the above information was useful for any of the readers, great. It's stuff I learned from studying under good teachers, and through my own efforts as a student. However, it is useless to explain techniques in a written format, so find someone to guide you through such training. If my posting the above had prevented a student from discovering these things for themselves, I apologize. Get off the internet and practice instead!

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Jim,

I'm responding to this post because I consider you a bud, and someone who's better at this stuff than I am.

This is not a moderator issue, in my opinion. I think I've run into Andrew myself at a Daito ryu seminar or two (not sure, but quite possible). I totally believe that he behaved just fine. My point is that that behavior should be the same when PMing someone whose home he wants to visit for training. That's it.

On Private PMs...Dan didn't post the PM, he just discussed it, and how he felt about the general tone of the ones he's been getting. He's not the first to do so...there are several well respected post on this board that do the same thing. I feel he did nothing wrong in that.

Last I have to say on the topic. I'm saying it publicly, because I personally see no reason not to.

Best and Happy Holidays to All,
Ron

Hi Ron,Maybe you should leave that to the moderator. I really don't want this thread to drift, but I met Andrew at my dojo when we hosted a seminar with Roy Goldberg-sensei. Not that Andrew needs me to do so, but I will vouch for his manners. Andrew was consistently courteous and gracious, on and off the mat, in his interactions with me and the other seminar participants.

In this instance, Dan asked Andrew to contact him by private message to discuss a future meeting. Andrew did. Apparently, Dan was not happy with Andrew's PM (and perhaps the PMs from others), and chose to air his displeasure with a private message publicly. Andrew took offense at being "scolded" publicly for his PM --- as many of us would, I suspect.

Private messages were meant to be private. If I'm wrong about this, please contact me privately.

Jim

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

Because of major thread drift, I created this thread by splitting the majority of posts from the previous thread (renamed):

Is Daito-ryu the only style of Aikijujutsu?

The title of this thread seemed to be the most appropriate one based on the content of this thread.

Samurai Jack, behave yourself or I'll send you to your own thread again...

Regards,

[Dan Harden]

Dan,
There has been a little of that, but pretty much every post you have in this thread makes reference to aiki (a Japanese word) and to DR or DR methods, which you are not willing to qualify. For the sake of clarification, my use of the term "proprietary" (exclusively owned) in regards to any art was to say (and I did say) that the *combination* of an arts principles are what becomes proprietary, not that "nobody else can do aiki except for those in DR" or that nobody else has some or all of the same principles.
The question posed in this thread related to aikijujutsu, which is a term originally coined by Daito-ryu. So are other arts doing AJJ? Who knows? You have to have a complete understanding of what DR's use of the term is, or for that matter, any other art that has started using the term since DR. Who on this forum is qualified to make the comparison? Exactly. So the answer is "I don't know, but there are surely arts out there that contain similar principles and/or methods".

So instead of always putting me on the spot for pointing things out...Address Sagawa saying it.....since it was my main point. He is your argument for hearing from authority.
It makes it seems surreal to be reading folks only wanting to be reading from authorities. With the only "authority" stating "it isn't in the kata stupid" and then seeing those arguing against him and what he said ...while asking for more authority to go train under...even when he said he never openly taught it. If it wasn't so sad it'd be funny.

The idea of "tanren" ( 鍛練 forging, training) and "tanden" ( 丹田 the center point of the body just below the navel) are quite common. You keep saying that nobody knows about these methods because our teachers want to keep them secret. Yes and no. In Japanese arts you are expected to stick around for a while and think a little bit. If you don't, then I guess there are a lot of secrets you won't get out from the training....snip..tanren examples...The point is, not only is solo tanden practice extant in Japanese budo, but students who have formally studied under a qualified teacher for more than a few classes will eventually learn them. I speak of my own experiences to illustrate this point.

I am saying that the real methods are rarely, if ever taught and most guys I have talked with who are seniors in many of these arts haven't a clue, and they were delighted to get to see and feel some things. Point is, its not taught to everyone.

Once again you don't address Sagawa and his authority who is contradicting you at every turn in what he chose not to teach.

...as EVERY art I now study and have studied I've begun as a beginner white belt - regardless of ranks and licenses in other arts - and worked my way up through the ranks and levels of initiations. Personally, I've found it to pay off big time, as I can now build on the generations of R&D that so many others have already done, and tested in real conflicts. Why start over again and re-invent the wheel?

This is a good point except that it is based on assumptions, One, that you will be taught and two that you will be taught something worthwhile. The Japanese are just as lost as many westerners and they are doing muscle building outer forms. Suburi as done by a certain extremely high ranking teacher I know was ridiculous...even stupid. I really don't care that he's a big gun. His solo stuff sucked. There was nothing to say. I showed him, He changed it, he is happy that he did.

...There are numerous references to Japanese arts teaching students to perform "1,000 cuts a day", or to perform impact-practice on yoko-gi and/or tate-gi (horizontal and vertical impact targets). Ueshiba can be seen in photos performing impact practice on a horizontal target on different occasions with his son Kisshomaru, Saito Morihiro, and a foreign student whose name I can't remember. Some aikido-ka strike car tires in an attempt to replicate this traditional target. I've used hay-bails in my own dojo for similar types of training (messy, but very effective). All these exercise are designed primarily to condition your tanden, and I'd be surprised to find that the majority of senior exponents of their given art that participate in this type of training would be ignorant of this.

Nonsense. Much of it is trash even among the Japanese. Can you cite exactly what it is you are training? What trains then tanden? What joins what? What parts do what? You don't need to hit anything to gain power with a sword.

...As far as empty-hand body conditioning, it is my understanding that new students to a koryu often learn jujutsu (body arts) first in order to begin conditioning the body correctly, so that by the time they learned weapons they would be well on the correct road to using their body correctly (tanden ryoku).

Well... spoken like a 20th century modern budo student. The exact opposite is true in some other Koryu. Further there is no need to "condition the body" through jujutsu. It can be done in other ways and the Japanese and Chinese know it. And Daito ryu's solo training is some of the finest in the world.
Again, you really never address Sagawa as he points out the genious of Daito ryu as an internal art. He points to the power of solo training, nor did you address the many stories in Japanese history of men who trained solo and gained power.
Instead you are a kata guy

...Breathing from the tanden? This is one of the first things I ever learned about martial arts when I was a kid. The martial arts most likely adapted this method of breathing from the various sects of Buddhism which teach breathing through the tanden during meditation. Japanese arts usually have kiai. I've heard some of my peers in other arts mock the use of kiai as being a useless attempt at scaring them, but is it possible there is more to it? I've observed that a given kata may contain quite a bit of "call and answer" type kiai, while the intended application of the techniques may not contain *any* (audible) kiai (ie: real fighting). So why practice kiai in kata only if you may not really use it? Yeah, to make sure you don't hold your breath, and to assist with synching your timing with your opponent. But proper kiai involves proper breathing from the tanden, and proper use of the tanden to produce the correct sounds. From what I've seen, kiai is the main tool used to teach tanden breathing and conditioning of the tanden, which is achieved during the practice of kata. The teacher, and even the student, can hear if the student is using their tanden correctly. So much for repetition of kata being worthless.

This is simply a cursury understanding of one type of breathing, in martial usage. Breathing 101. It is so superficial as to be not worth discussing. There are far, far, more potent way to connect the body in breathing...and...they are in Daito ryu. The reality of breath-power is fascia work and has little to nothing to do with what you wrote.

...Famous swordsmen Yamaoka Tesshu taught his students that "The secrets of our school are all contained in the kata". .

That's fine... famous Daito ryu master Sagawa said the opposite,(arguing from authority) that Kata and technique isn't it and anyone who thinks it is... is an idiot!! and knows less then nothing. So where does any of that leave us?

...Kata is and has been the primary instructional tool of Japanese budo, and there is no reason that anyone can't experience self-realizations through mindful and guided repetition of kata. Is it faster to have someone explain the principle to you? Sure. But you still have to develop basics and settle on a single operating/delivery system. Being able to perform unbendable arm type stuff in the dojo will only get you so far..It is rarely spoken of in Japanese arts because of the emphasis on self-realization through study of kata and other training methods.

But again you don't adress Sagawa's comments do you. He was told not to reveal the real work...solo training to change the body, and he didn't. The methods are there, and certain schools know exactly what to do and teach and they do to whom they wish.

... If you study with a teacher long enough, they will answer most questions and guide you in the correct direction once they've seen you put forth your own effort first. But that takes studying an art long enough to ascend through levels of initiation. Dabbling will only get you so far..

That is on many levels sometimes true to simply not true at all,what a gamble. Sagawa did not teach it but to only a few and that not till the end of his life. I have seen secretive but honest Koryu, I have seen mislead students as well.

... Your opinion, which is based on what? Meeting unnamed exponents of other arts, who have unspoken levels of initiation in their own art(s)? Based on your own experience, which is always implied but never stated? This is the internet. None of us can feel your technique here, and most of us will not be flying out there so that we can better evaluate the value of your posts. On the internet, this kind of posting just comes off like self-hype...It's not a waste of time if you talk about your own experiences without name dropping arts and terminology your not qualified to drop. It sounds like many people are interested in your methods. Why not use English to describe them since all this cultural stuff and historical stuff is irrelevant?

I'll take your continuing digs without launching my own. Theres a hell of a lot of stuff I can say good and bad, but I won't. I have my own experiences and from what I can glean here I am glad for what I know and can do. But I am curious as to why you keep coming after me for ideas I quote from Sagawa? You continually opine for authority and ignore, and at one point down played the one who is the centerpoint of the argument. He was quite plain

...I'm saying stick to what you know and don't come here and berate those of us that choose to study under a teacher.

Nathan It seems to me that you and a very few others feel that way. I am not berating those who train that way as I still do myself. That said a whole bunch of folks are out there testing and making more arangements to train this way. After they felt it, they no longer believe your type of argument or what you are saying, in fact, if you ask they will tell you kindly and with resect that you are simply....wrong. But here's the key, All are staying in Daito ryu and Aikido, and I have encouraged a few more to join DR.

I understand you are an advocate of the traditional Koryu method, so am I. But we have been had by some, in some... of these arts. While some are willing to eat it wirh a spoon and say "Yummy!" others are not so inclined.
Cheers
Dan
Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi

[Nathan Scott]

Once again you don't address Sagawa and his authority who is contradicting you at every turn in what he chose not to teach.

I've got no problem addressing your quotes from Sagawa Sensei, and I will do so now. No problem. You on the other hand have opted to not respond to a number of points I have made, which include a quote from Sagawa Sensei saying he tried breathing methods and gave them up (see below). By the way, one thing you will find after reading the entire book is that many points are repeated over and over again. This is due in part to quotes and what not being compiled from different time periods. Hence, some quotes also contradict themselves a bit. That is why you have to read the whole book.

Frankly, quoting Sagawa Sensei in every post is getting old. I was trying to find arguments without adding to the Sagawa festival. It does sound like he was a very skilled teacher, and his point of view carries a great deal of weight in DR and martial arts in general. That being said, it is not the only point of view, and some of the things you've said sounds as though you've either taken his words out of context or somewhat misunderstood the text.

Before I begin with the Sagawa stuff, let me qualify it by saying that I have read the entire "Tomei na Chikara" book in great detail, as well as Kimura's other book "Discovering Aiki" to a lesser degree, and other books and articles in Japanese and English. Enjoy the free translation.

Reading through the book, it is clear that Sagawa was changing and developing his art throughout his entire life. Also, the book was written by Kimura Tatsuo Sensei, one of three successors of the Sagawa Dojo. It is possible that his interpretations of the teachings may not be identical to that of his two seniors (just something else to take into consideration).

Here are some more quotes from Sagawa Sensei as translated from the Kimura book Dan is referencing:

“Generally, a person who has a multitude of dan ranks in various studies, such as a something-dan in karate and something-dan in judo, etc. is not a truly great martial artist. Such a person only desires to learn certain things, and is not focused on any one system completely. Aiki is related to all types of martial arts.”

I interpret this as Sagawa frowning on dabbling, not so much cross-training (as he cross-trained himself extensively). It is interesting though that he places importance on focusing on one system completely. "Only desiring to learn certain things" is what many are doing instead of studying from the beginning under a teacher.

Referring to the period immediately following WWII:

"However, since I would move around a lot, spending one week in a place like Hakodate, and then the next week somewhere else, it was impossible for the students to really learn properly during that time. The training time was also limited, and I was therefore unable to include body-conditioning exercises in order to establish the necessary foundational physique. There was only time to teach techniques, so all things considered, it is easy to understand why the students had trouble learning ... I taught my students how to condition their bodies to some extent, because I found that, even if they trained diligently, I could still throw them freely by applying aiki. If it wasn’t for this, it would not be necessary for me to teach them how to condition themselves ... Even the biggest secrets that Takeda Sensei demanded I not teach, here at the Sagawa dojo, I am now teaching. That is why all my students have become strong."

It sounds to me like Sagawa Sensei did in fact teach the body-conditioning exercises when possible. He may not have been able to fit it in during the earlier days, but teaching out of his dojo daily to regular students would have been easy enough. Is it that he didn't teach them, or that the students didn't pay attention? So much for his poor students not being exposed to the gold after all those years.

"Finally, when Sagawa was about sixty-eight years old, he discovered a new type of aiki, which was developed from the aiki of Takeda Sokaku ... However, because [Sokaku] traveled continuously, there was virtually no time for him to think deeply about such things or to do the physical research necessary to make such a discovery ... This method is now completely different from that which Takeda Sensei was using ... My aiki spawned from Daito-ryu aiki, but has now become something completely different."

Thinking deeply and conducting physical research of Sokaku's method of aiki sounds less like body-conditioning and more like technique. But I'm just guessing based on what's written in a book. You also criticized me for saying that what Sagawa was doing may be different from what other students of Sokaku were doing (meaning not all of what Sagawa's teachings may apply to other branches). I hope the above quote clarify my reason for saying this. It is not a value judgment, just a recognition that it may be something different.

"On the other hand, all the types of things Sagawa Sensei says are reasonable, and based on concrete concepts. Things such as “how to think” and “how to see”, which develops very naturally if guided by Sagawa Sensei, but lacking such guidance, would appear very difficult to discover by oneself."

The author seems to think it is not that hard to learn from Sagawa as long as you follow his teachings. On the other hand, trying to discover such concepts without the guidance of a qualified instructor is very difficult.

"In this chapter I state clearly that in the deeper teachings of Daito-ryu, aiki exists as a concrete technique. It appears likely that aiki was discovered by Takeda Sokaku Sensei, and that Sagawa Sensei realized this principal when he was seventeen years old, further developing it largely through practical application over a long period of time."

According to the author's understanding of Sagawa's methods, aiki is a principal that was further developed by Sagawa largely through practical application over a long period of time.

"Sagawa discovered the essence of aiki when he was seventeen years old. Following that, he began experimenting with various types of training intended to increase his aiki abilities, which is evidence that even from the beginning his perspective on training was different from that of the mainstream ... and studied various methods of training the body before finally establishing his own methods, one after the other ... These methods of training are specifically designed to enhance aiki abilities."

He developed self-training methods in order to *increase* his aiki abilities. He did not consider them "aiki", or even something that *causes* aiki to happen.

"In my case, if I move my body even a little bit, using any kind of motion, the enemy’s bodies will collapse. I can make the opponent collapse regardless of the attack. This “body-aiki” cannot be achieved within twenty or thirty years by even the most talented budo-ka. For those who do not have an adequate level of talent, it will be impossible for them to achieve this type of technique even if they were to practice seriously for many years ... If one understands the theory of aiki, and then trains seriously for a few decades, they can develop real ability ... Aiki should in fact be developed over a long period of time ... One cannot obtain real ability in aiki without training every day, for more than several decades, thereby causing the body to memorize the sensation on a daily basis."

According to Sagawa, there are no time shortcuts to developing his *technique*, and in fact advises against trying to develop it too quickly. The above goes against what you have been advising readers to do in this forum. You stated previously "The power of Aiki in the body is not dependant on an art, not expressed in a technique". You also wrote "It is unfortunate that many arts will not openly teach it and tell everyone to train for twenty years “getting it” from repetition of technique. It was and still can be gotten in a much shorter time frame, and without signing on to perpetuate an art."

"Aiki should not be explained through words, but should be discovered through continuously researching in your mind the feeling experienced when being thrown, and through this process, begin to develop your own theories."

That's funny, Sagawa doesn't think that explaining aiki to others is a good thing.

"To be honest, it is impossible to perform true techniques without having first trained the body ... I believe one should practice sword techniques only after one has properly conditioned their body."

I'm not sure why talking about Edo period training is speaking like a 20th century budo student, but in regards to conditioning the body first (in my example through learning jujutsu first) it looks like Sagawa also saw the value in such a structure.

"I’ve tried everything before, but in regards to breathing, I finally came to the resolution that special breathing methods are of no use. Of course, there are good points to the idea of stopping the breath, or breathing in various ways. But in the end, it is something that is induced artificially, and as a result, will cause movements to become slow or awkward at certain points and the techniques to feel unnatural. Things such as breathing are things one should develop naturally through training in martial arts."

Another oops you haven't addressed yet...

"Don't get hooked on kata, and don’t try to create new kata. Kata might appear well-formed when viewed by others, but artificially created kata are in fact nothing more than dead forms. To train jujutsu as a set of pre-arranged kata is the worst mistake, as such training becomes useless for real fighting. Practicing variations is paramount, so our way is like this."

Sagawa does not say kata is worthless, he says don't get overly hooked on it, because being able to move freely based on a given situation is important. He makes a good point. Sagawa himself admits he learned aiki at 17 years old from a kata he researched and repeated endlessly, which he learned from Sokaku.

[Dan:] Nonsense. Much of it is trash even among the Japanese. Can you cite exactly what it is you are training? What trains then tanden? What joins what? What parts do what? You don't need to hit anything to gain power with a sword.

Sure. Using weighted instruments, resistance training, and impact training condition the tanden, which allows you to maximize and conduct the power generated through the kahanshin (lower body) to the johanshin (upper body). Especially if you kiai correctly. The tanden is the connection between the two. New students use localized muscles in the beginning until they get tired, and eventually their body finds an easier way, a big part of which is connecting to the tanden and using their whole body. You don't need to hit something to gain power with a sword, but hitting something correctly will develop your tanden strength, which will in turn allow you to cut more efficiently using your whole body and with more power.

Again, you really never address Sagawa as he points out the genious of Daito ryu as an internal art. He points to the power of solo training, nor did you address the many stories in Japanese history of men who trained solo and gained power. Instead you are a kata guy.

I've said in other threads that I believe DR is an internal art - or at least that it has significant internal elements. I've also described solo training to develop power that I do, and referenced the tools and methods as being used by martial artists of the past. Yeah I am a kata guy, but as I wrote in my last post, I am clearly a self-training guy also. How is it possible that you could have missed that? I even posted links to an MPEG and essay from my website. Most arts also have self-training aspects as well. Big deal. In my opinion focusing on only the self-training is as ignorant as focusing only on the kata.

This is simply a cursury understanding of one type of breathing, in martial usage. Breathing 101. It is so superficial as to be not worth discussing. There are far, far, more potent way to connect the body in breathing...and...they are in Daito ryu.

Boy, I didn't think I closed the door to specific breathing methods. I simply referenced tanden breathing as being fundamental to Japanese arts. Tanden and breathing. I thought those were two subjects we were discussing. I am aware that there are specific breathing techniques that exist within various schools, thanks. BTW, I see above you can't avoid comparing your breathing methods to Daito-ryu. I know THAT opinion didn't come from Sagawa's book...

**

Believe it or not I'm not really interested in arguing over something we clearly don't agree on. My point was that you should resist comparing your R&D to that of arts you are not qualified to speak about. Even if you quote Sagawa, he clearly states above that what he is doing is different than what Sokaku and other branches of DR were doing.

Kimura's book is a great book. Inspirational and insightful. I recommend reading it. But there are many ways to the top of the hill.

Regards,

[Dan Harden]

Nathan
We are not going to come to agreement. We can’t.
A couple of things.
I keep discussing Sagawa,
You keep discussing me.
I stated that solo training is the engine that drives high level Aiki. You stated no one outside the art is qualified to discuss it, so I keep talking about someone who is... Sagawa

Various quotes that you gathered and your responses to them do no match up either. Case in point:

"Sagawa discovered the essence of aiki when he was seventeen years old. Following that, he began experimenting with various types of training intended to increase his aiki abilities, which is evidence that even from the beginning his perspective on training was different from that of the mainstream ... and studied various methods of training the body before finally establishing his own methods, one after the other ... These methods of training are specifically designed to enhance aiki abilities."
To which you try to make the point….
Nathan: ”He developed self-training methods in order to *increase* his aiki abilities. He did not consider them "aiki", or even something that *causes* aiki to happen.”
Yet right underneath that you make my point for me, its almost like quoting me.
Sagawa:

"In my case, if I move my body even a little bit, using any kind of motion, the enemy’s bodies will collapse. I can make the opponent collapse regardless of the attack. This “body-aiki” cannot be achieved within twenty or thirty years by even the most talented budo-ka. For those who do not have an adequate level of talent, it will be impossible for them to achieve this type of technique even if they were to practice seriously for many years ... If one understands the theory of aiki, and then trains seriously for a few decades, they can develop real ability ... Aiki should in fact be developed over a long period of time ... One cannot obtain real ability in aiki without training every day, for more than several decades, thereby causing the body to memorize the sensation on a daily basis."

While trying to argue against my idea that there are specific way to train to shorten the learning curve… you inadvertently point out that there is a solo training method inherent in the art and that it-the body aiki- is the …it…in the first place.
Sagawa:

The reason practitioners from some styles are weak and no good is because they do not train (Tanren) their bodies. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough and that training the body is unnecessary. They understand nothing. In reality unless you train the body you will not be able to do technique. …. The training needed to strengthen the parts needed for Aiki is different from “Normal” training.

As for your contention that he did teach it?
Two things in response
First he stated the he DID NOT teach it for most of his career. Then later in his life he was fearful it would be lost so he STARTED to drop hints in his practice.
Sagawa:

So I taught them a little on how to train their bodies. I didn’t even teach that until a couple of years ago. … when I became ninety, I finally decided that I should teach. Unless I teach you now <it will be lost>.

Now what did –HE- say happened when he did?
Sagawa:

All of you became much stronger after I started to teach the Daihiden which Takeda Sensei told me I should never reveal.

He makes it clear that they changed quickly since he died 5 years after stating he started to teach at 90.
So where you stated

According to Sagawa, there are no time shortcuts to developing his *technique*, and in fact advises against trying to develop it too quickly. The above goes against what you have been advising readers to do in this forum. You stated previously "The power of Aiki in the body is not dependant on an art, not expressed in a technique". You also wrote "It is unfortunate that many arts will not openly teach it and tell everyone to train for twenty years “getting it” from repetition of technique. It was and still can be gotten in a much shorter time frame, and without signing on to perpetuate an art."

Sagawa made the point that the body aiki was the …it…and it did indeed come from solo training. The fact that you don’t know this or agree that Sagawa is in fact stating this...is fine.

I don't want to argue anymore and do a pick apart review of each others comments. Let each person decide on their own and go train. I am saddened however to see Sagawa level of skill marginalized, sidelined or reduced in anyway. Or, because of his continued training, research and discoveries that his Aiki is questioned as not being DR Aiki. That he made leaps and discoveries is natural. It is known that you have jumps in your training, and epiphanies to the body method during your career in Daito ryu. It is discussed. I had a 6th dan teacher in the art joyfully express just such a leap in his aiki happening to him a few years ago. I think it’s a natural progression. Takeda’s students did most of their training without him, and the majority of their careers were with them developing on their own. In every sense, they developed differently through their research…long after a comparatively shorter period with Takeda, and even that time was spent mostly in their going home to train and work what he showed them. This is a major contributory factor in explaining the differences in approach the schools have, and their colorful opinions of each other. But nowhere have I read someone saying each is not Daito ryu. So, while Sagawa can attribute a change to his aiki through his research, as can others, I find it dubious to attribute their later leaps to being anything other than DR.
As for Sagawa’s skill, and to change the subject a bit without being specific, I recall the words of a man who is a highly proficient and long time teacher of Daito ryu. His skills, were substantial and tied to a specific school. I spoke and trained with him when he got back from training with Sagawa for the first time. He told me that after training with Sagawa he was shocked. That he felt as if his previous training meant nothing, that he knew nothing about aiki, and that Sagawa was doing the real Daito ryu aiki. Since I took ukemi for him before and after he went, I can offer that his power and his technique changed markedly over the next year. Most worthy of note was that his power was technique-less. I recall taking ukemi while he joked and spoke with those in the room, and without him doing anything I was being raised by touching his body. That never happened before. I know what he said and taught the difference was.
I also know another fellow a teacher, who trained in a DR branch that specialized in Aiki and this fellow trained with all the top men, he went and felt Kimura, who some think is the only one to really get Sagawa’s Aiki. It his opinion that –he- was better than the masters of his own school.
Last a student, who trained in the same school of DR as the other example above, who went to Sagawa’s school and was stunned by the aiki there as opposed to others.
Last, I know there are those who know -at least visually- what Sokaku’s technique looked like, and what two of his first generation students –felt- like. I consider their opinion a qualified one, and their opinion of Sagawa worth consideration. The real question is whether or not …these guys…improved because they were told about changing technique, or changing their bodies and just …what… made that defining difference to doing their..Aiki. And since no one in the art can agree on what aiki is-except they usually are sure it isn’t the other guy.....It remains interesting to speculate.

An arts overall history, feel, and expression is inherent in everything the art contains; its body method, its kata, and it's gokui. All of it together makes the art. More than a few highlevel folks have been surprised when-they- reached the deepest initiation to discover secrets..in the other arts they became deeply initiated into. Menkyo's have stated this.
So, away from DR ...there are folks out there training this body stuff I am talking about. Let’s say what they are doing has nothing at all, nothing in the known world to do with Daito ryu aiki. Lets say you're correct that its a secret that no one can possiibly know without deep initiation.
How did Sagawa get his men to change in 5 years after he decided...to finally teach?
With changing their bodies through solo tanren...we should too.
Happy holidays
Dan
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