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Thread: Teatcher and student etiquette

  1. #1
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    Default Teatcher and student etiquette

    Hi all,

    First. I´m sory. My english is not the best. And maybe I allready have make some forum etiquette mistakes. Sory if I have.

    My question (quite long stoory).

    I have a student. He started with a great spirit. Soon he became on of my "favourite" (moust used) uke.
    But after while he became more arrogant. He started to disagree whit me (loudly) and questionaising (doubting) techniques i teatch. He started to do techniques differently in my class (he´s own way and the way another student in my dojo do(this other student has learned he´s techniques elsewhere)). And finaly he went in to kyu examination without my permission(telling to the teatcher that he has my permission). After the examination he announced his new rank to all (by e-mail).

    He didn´t even look me in to eyes. After I asked why he went to the examination? he just told me that it is my own fault of not teatching him enough...
    I did narrowed down teatching him after he started to do techniques another way (he learned them from this another student). In one class we all 3 were practicing together, and I told him to do this one technique like i have teatched, not the way how he was doing it(with this another student), and he looked me and said, "I don´t know any other way". Even when we spent hole yesterday learning it (in my way). I was choked. It clearly looked like he wasen´t interested to learn from me anymore.

    I can´t even imagine to act so whit my sensei. I feel like being betrayed. Maybe it is my own fault. I dont claim to be good teatcher. But what would you do if you would be me?


    Yours,

    Mike White
    Aikido

  2. #2
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    I have had students like this before. If they want rank from you it must be done your way, plain and simple. If they go to a testing at another location and need your permission that is plain enough. Apparently this student lied about it. i would inform the ranking organization of this and inform him both prifvatrely as well as publicly, in the dojo in front of the class. If the ranking organization says it is OK, demote him as publicly as he promoted himself.
    With respect,

    Mitch Saret

  3. #3
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    It is apparent that your student has lost a great deal of respect for you as his Sensei, and unfortunately for himself to do what he did. Many of my students crosstrain in TKD and Brazillian JJ but they fully understand that when in the Dojo with me things are done in accordance with Ryu protocol
    (I also crosstrain in other arts). I severed a 13 year relationship with a Student/asst. Instructor due to behavior unbecoming of a practitioner of our Ryu. He was bad mouthing our Shihan, this writer and other practitioners as well as speading lies and engaging in splitting behavior because he was not being promoted fast enough for him. That was due to lack of maturity in some areas that are expected from Yudansha in that position. I say your student has his reward in full--a damaged relationship with his teacher, seen as less than honarable by others, and a belt that was earned under false pretense. I say be done with him and concentrate on those who really want to learn and value the gift you are attempting to share. Severing a long term relationship with my student broke my heart as Shihan and I had trained him since he was 15 years old (for free). Students will come and go but the art remains.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  4. #4
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    If you want to learn from me-you learn my way.
    If you progress you progress at the rate I set for you.
    I am the teacher you are the student.
    If you disagree with the above leave before I kick you out (literally or figurativley).

    Duane Wolfe
    Duane Wolfe

  5. #5
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    Mike,

    IMHO:

    You should definitely end your relationship with this student.

    In addition, you should have a long conversation with your other student that was "teaching" him other techniques. You should be the only teacher in the dojo unless YOU state otherwise. In addition, any such "challenges" to you being a teacher should be dealt with immediately. I think this situation went way too far.

    As a teacher I always encourage conversation and questions. It is important to keep an open mind, especially when training for "real world" situations. However, when training traditionally, we (all those in a ryu) must submit to the knowledge and training methods of the creators and leaders of the ryu.

    Best of luck.

    A. De Luna

  6. #6
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    Hello Mike!
    It seems that your student cannot learn from you anymore, that`s sad for him, because he needs to search another dojo, but obviously also a sad situation for you, because you also invested power in his growth...May I ask how long he has been your student?

    Quote Originally Posted by small-mike View Post
    And finaly he went in to kyu examination without my permission(telling to the teatcher that he has my permission).
    Didn`he need a signature or anything like that?
    N. Schweizer

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    Why is this guy still in your dojo? Show him the door.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  8. #8
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    I agree with the above posts that say it's time to end this battle of wills.

    The only things I would add are that I would explain to the student why he is being dismissed, and that after a specific period -- for example 90 days, 6 months, or whatever -- he may return if he will agree to properly observe the teacher/student relationship.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Mike:

    You are the teacher. You must act like one at all times. You gradually allowed this student to not respect you, even in front of other students. A student has a right to train with whomever he/she wants. If that student studies with one person, then that student needs to follow that teacher. As a teacher, you have a right to teach whom you want to teach. If you choose to teach a student then do so with all sincerity. Both you and this student crossed lines that never should have been crossed.

    Since my teacher has given me authority to test up until and including the rank of Nidan, this situation would not have happened at my school. If I were in your shoes, I would inform the person who gave the test as to what really happened. It should be up to that person to do what is right in regards to allowing your student to retain that rank, or to withdraw the rank. As to the student training in my school, that student would be shown the door and it would be explained to him, that the door represents an exit only and to seek training elsewhere.

    Marc Abrams
    Chief Instructor
    Aikido Arts of Shin-Budo Kai
    Dr. Marc Abrams
    www.aasbk.com

  10. #10
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    Hi Mike,
    It seems that most of the posters here share the same opinion about the student teacher relationship. I had an afterthought after reading your signature. It states that you are an Aikido practitioner. I know that in the Aikido circles that I travel in Texas, protocol is the order of the day. Thinking about it afterwards I found it odd that an Aikido Sensei would take it upon himself to test a student from another school without being in DIRECT COMMUNICATION with that students Sensei in order to clarify why he is not testing at his own school, with his own teacher. You may need to address this with the other Sensei. I sit on Aikido promotion boards for students from other schools only at the invitation of their Sensei, unless the Sensei directly asks me to test someone should the need arise. This protocol also is in place for the other arts I practice as well.
    Maybe we are just old school like that, but it works for us. There is much wisdom in the above posts and I hope that it helps you in the future to avoid these pitfalls with other students.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  11. #11
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    Hi all,

    thanks you all from your advices. I respect them all, and they have helped me to make my decision.

    This person has been my student for 2,5 year. He talked himself into examination. (teling lies and fairy tales). It did broked our student teacher relationship.

    I know I let it go too far. But it has been kind of “good” experience to me too to grow to be better teacher. I have learned to be “harder” by the hard way. I know I have been too soft about these things. live and learn.


    Yours,

    Mike White
    Aikido

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    The hard way is no doubt the right course of action.

    Nevertheless, doing techniques a certain way has to have a certain justification or reasoning behind it. If that reasoning is explained, if alternate ways are tested and the original way of doing a technique is tested or open to investigation, that can be a learning experience for all involved. If the final answer is unequivocably "because that's how it's done" without the why and wherefore, the art can lose its vitality. Growth doesn't always follow the same exact pattern.

    Now, I don't think such a Socratic method would work at this point with this individual student. And this doesn't mean I advocate dropping valuable traditions. But each tradition and technique should have an internal logic and reason for being so, or else it's either not well understood or window dressing.
    Michael Hobson

    Mukyudoka

  13. #13
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    Whatever you do you must be in control, so take it.

    Osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by small-mike View Post
    I know I let it go too far. But it has been kind of “good” experience to me too to grow to be better teacher. I have learned to be “harder” by the hard way. I know I have been too soft about these things. live and learn.
    Maybe I am totally wrong, but I guess that you are in a way unsecure about your role as a teacher, so that it can be very hard to draw lines and make decisions. Maybe I am wrong, I don`t know...
    But as far as you are still able to learn as a teacher, I guess that you are a much better one then a lot of teachers who gone that way before you...
    Good luck!
    N. Schweizer

  15. #15
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    Get rid of him. There are plenty of better students that can take his place =)

    Though I have to admit that sometimes I may come of as a little disrespectful to my own sensei, but that is mostly because of my immense enthusiasm involving that martial art. Youthful energy perhaps? Or immaturity?

    Of course this student of yours went too far but regardless in the future don't take a little disrespect as insulting. The student might just be too excited to learn =)
    -John Nguyen

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