Why the grip?

[Scott]

To Any and All:

Here is a question I have had for years and have never found a satisfactory answer.

Why is the katana and jo gripped with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers instead of the thumb and forefinger? Is there a biomechanical reason? In Aikido Ken and Jo I have heard it said that the ki is to project out the forefinger. Is this common to kenjutsu or just an Aikido thing? How about those of you that train in western style swordsmanship? Is the grip the same or different, and why?

I would appreciate everyones thoughts and learning concerning these questions. Thank you.

Sincerely,

[hyaku]

Depends upon what muscles are to be used in the forearm. But above all the flexibilty of the wrist used in Japanese swordsmanship favors this grip.A full handed grip cuts down this flexibilty.

Hyakutake Colin

[Dan Harden]

HI Scot

In a word...leverage

A simplistic, non definitive example:
Pick up a bokuto. Hold it in a one hand sword grip, have a friend grab it at the monouchi and give you resistence there. Try generating power through the base of the palm of the baby finger rolling forward through to the base of the first finger. He will have a difficult time pushing back. What kind of "cutting potential" do you think that can make?
Next do the same with a squared grip. you will find he can push your power and hand ""back at you" much easier with you using a squared grip, even to the point of colapsing your grip all together and taking it right out of your hand. What kind of "cutting potential" do you think that will make?
Secondly, the grips used are not singular. And the power that you speak of is different in some schools. Some having a push/pull lever "into the cut" some being more of a "drawing slice" rotating around the right hand with power coming from the left.
Third. There is a lot more happening in simple Te-no-uchi
than the gripping of the hands. The grip aligns the bones the radious/ulna-humorous-scapular- to spine to hips. Depending on what you are doing your body will "fix" itself in many different positions to generate power to a stop/reversal to another cut, for power AND speed...a subject too complicated to describe for this forum.
fourth, a tight grip is what "not to do." with proper power generation a relaxed body and hands can cut the sword out of the hands of a tightly gripped one. Most anyone who has been around blades for a while will say that a relaxed body and grip is the way to go.

a little device I am familiar with to gain proper hand postioning on a draw is to lift your hand to clear your potential sleeve catching on a secondary blade, and roll your shoulder forward to draw, "pushing" the tsuka out, not "pulling" it out. The small and rather quick rolling forward of the shoulder drops it and enables a mechanically sound sword grip in all manner of draws:, upwards, sideways, vertical, what have you. Too, it keeps the elbows in close to the body, in a relaxed state. With proper body positioning you can collapse into your self and spring up and out into a power cut, or lift up and down to a kiri-oroshi. So the winding/ collapsing power is all in the body not simply the hands.


Dan

P.S. The "Aiki-ken" ki forward through you first finger you mentioned, I do not know. I hope you are not sticking out your first finger like some people I have seen.



[Edited by Dan Harden on 01-18-2001 at 05:44 AM]

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Dan Harden
HI Scot
Dan

P.S. The "Aiki-ken" ki forward through you first finger you mentioned, I do not know. I hope you are not sticking out your first finger like some people I have seen.



[Edited by Dan Harden on 01-18-2001 at 05:44 AM]

The main reason for that is, if your sticking finger point out right on your eye, you can easy make yourself blind with your ki for ever!!.

[Erik Tracy]

Here's another exercise to show the difference in grips.
(disclaimer - this comes from the "big cut" school of thought of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu)

Have your training partner hold his bokken (that's the term I prefer) crosswise/horizontal directly in front of his own head.

Take your bokken and lay it on his as if you are doing a cut to men.

Now, only using the thumb and first two fingers for both hands as your grip, try to cut thru. As you *try* to increase your power you're going to notice that your wrists break forward and pronate, the shoulders start to rise up, and your whole body will start to rise up as well. Very weak.

Repeat the test by changing your grip using the last 2-3 fingers (palms aligned on the top of the tsuka). You're going to notice a difference in the amount of power you can apply into the cut because the shoulders stay down and your center gets deeper. Alignment is what its all about - starting with the little finger! Imagine that.

Erik Tracy

[Scott]

To All,

Thank you for your helpful insights. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question.

Sincerely,

[Earl Hartman]

All of the posters make good points. Another thing to remember is that proper cutting, and the power needed to cut, are a function of the working of the entire body as it functions through the tenouchi (grip). Generally, proper balance and power come from a posture that uses the hips and lower body and keeps the upper body, especially the chest and shoulders, in a relaxed state. Trying to generate power through the top of the hand, that is, through the thumb and forefinger, causes the shoulders to rise, leading to tension in the arms and shoulders and a loss of balance, since tension in the upper body destroys the stability of the lower body. It also results in the heel of the hand separating fron the tusuka (handle), which makes it impossible to control the blade properly. Since most people are either right or left handed, this leads to a lack of balance between the power generated by the hands, which will lead inevitably to poor hasuji; that is, the correct presentation of edge to target, so important for cutting, will be lost.

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 01-18-2001 at 01:33 PM]

[David Pitard]

All posters have made good comments -- and in any basic/standard cut it is true.

I can think of several cases, however, where you do NOT want to grip with that way, rather you want to grip with the thumb and index finger.

In SMR Jo -- Gyakute-uchi (any gyakute grip) is just a case. Another, I believe, is while drwaing the sword. You have to draw it out with your thumb and index finger and then you switch to the standard grip. Can anyone think of others?

[hyaku]

Hello again Scott

You had mentioned Kenjutsu and I had said that, "It
depends upon what muscles are to be used in the forearm".

Although the second, third and and fourth finger are used this is where the similarity more or less ends. I had put this simply because in a lot of Koryu the grip is totally different and the first finger is projected on to the side of the blade for weapons without a tsuba. All a bit too complicated to post in detail

There are many varied ideas and principals out there.


Hyakutake Colin