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Thread: Uechi Ryu, is it Karate?

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    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by anewsome View Post
    This is an interesting technique, can you talk more about the history of
    this technique?
    Hello Aaron,
    E-Budo rules state that you have to put your full name in each post. You can modify your sig to have this done automatically.

    Thanks,
    Mark

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    Hi Brendan,

    Kuk sool (won) is a new MA, with roots in Hapkido and Southern Praying Mantis. For more info on esoteric Korean martial arts, go to http://www.hapkidoforum.com

    Tae Kwon Do is often discussed as a derivative of Shotokan, even using many of the same kata (hyung or poomse in Korean).
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

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    Triads and tongs are examples of South Chinese secret societies. Some of these societies were essentially mafia (e.g., the Green Gang in Shanghai), but others were essentially benevolent organizations. For a discussion of this in the USA, see Brian Paciotti, "Homicide in Seattle's Chinatown, 1900-1940: Evaluating the Influence of Social Organizations," _Homicide Studies_ (2005), 9: 229-255. http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/229 . The original is pay-per-view, but the draft can be read via PDF download from Paciotti's home page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anewsome View Post
    This is an interesting technique, can you talk more about the history of
    this technique?
    Mods: this guy is spamming MA boards with these generic posts, not sure why but he's doing at fightingarts.com as well. Just a heads up.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    The previous link talked about Chinese gangster societies. For an introduction to a Chinese benevolent society in North America, see
    http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/history/ch...ons/index.html .

    What's interesting about this article is its discussion of the Hong Leagues, the Southern Shaolin Temple, and so on. That the traditional lodge stories almost exactly mirror what Sifu Sez about the origins of Southern Shaolin boxing indicates that many, perhaps most, early teachers of CMA in North America were members of benevolent societies such as the ones described here. (If they hadn't been, then Sifu would have had different stories.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...just like bruce lee made jun fan, his style of wing chun. It is not a completely different martial art because he taught it in America.
    No, it's not a completely different art because he taught it in America; it's a significantly different art because it combines elements of Wing Chun with elements of other Gung Fu systems, Western-style boxing, Ryukyu Kempo, and whatever else works with efficiency. Wing Chun was just one foundational art -- among many -- that went into Jun Fan Gung Fu.

    Jun Fan Gung Fu is not a "style" of Wing Chun.

    Sorry for the thread drift, but I feel that the distinction is important.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Wikipedia articles do not mean they are ever correct or accurate as anyone can enter material. Just reading this morning how Universities are banning its use by studetns because they have too many failing tests after using Wikipedia as a source.

    Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan contained the same forms as Shotokan taught in roughly the same order and having the same names, just Korean pronunciations. Hwrang Kee apparently sourced Shotokan for the system's development, perhaps with the inclusion of Korean style kicking.
    I had the misfortune of explaining this in a letter to Black Belt in 79 and two months later had ever letter in the magazine (then published by a Korean publisher) denouncing my existence for explaining this (and today the TSD people write the same articles). (Which got me great favor in some circles and perhaps great dis-favor in others, as I didn't care any way no small loss to me).

    Of course I was unaware how any Korean had no reason to admit any ties to Japan after the totally brutal way Japan treated Korean for half a century. Makes me wonder what would be left today if South Korea had developed the atomic bomb perhaps?

    Frankly the core of this is arts are what they are, not where they came from, which is just an intellectual exercise.

    Uechi Ryu was originally taught in the Okinawan community within Japan proper and was not imported to Okinawa till 1948. On the other hand Mr. Uechi was Okinawan even if he originally trained in China.

    I've had students with Uechi backgrounds and I tend to take very seriously people who train that intense and want to insert their finger tips, thumbs and toe tips into my body, and work hard not to let that occur.

    History is interesting, whenever we can prove any of it, but in the end it's what they do on the dojo floor today which is more important, IMVHO.
    Victor Smith
    Bushi No Te Isshinryu
    www.funkydragon.com/bushi

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    First, sorry it took me so long to reply, had trouble getting to an ineternet connection that worked for more than a couple of minutes these past few days.

    To John Connely, If you go to the homepage of Kuk Sool Won you will learn that it was formally created into a martial art by the grand master kim inhyuk and he founded it more recently, however he claims (and he is supported by the korean government, actually kuk sool won is the official martial art of korea while tae kwon do is the official sport of korea) that his family were the instructors to the korean royal family, before their queen was murdered by the japanese and they were taken over by them. When the Japanese came they burned korea's historical libraries, sources of their martial art traditions. They then placed three or four foot long nails, about half a foot around, into the mountain tops in korea in order to stop the ki from flowing from the mountains, traditionally believed to be a source of ki, to the korean people. Today they have removed about 70 % of these nails, but still some remain. Grand master in hyuck claims that his art, kuk sool won, is a combination of traditional tribal martial arts of korea, Korean buddist temple arts, as well as the fighting style of the Korean courts. There is no mention of hapkido, however. I guess it goes to trust in the creator and the historical verification from the Korean government, using what information they had about his family's istory and what texts remained, of which i don't know how much did, the japanese were very thorough in their work.

    I said it was his style of wing chun, not a style of wing chun, he mixed it with other elements but it was his own style of which wingchun made up the bulk. that's why he called it jun fan gung fu, bruce's kung fu.
    I am sorry if it offended you or your style.


    To Joeseph Svinth, thanks man, I actually didn't know that the Yukon site was back up and running, it was having some problems before. I am actually a Freemason and so are many of my family members and I wasn't aware of the Hongmen's connection. I had heard of them before, but never made the distinction, I thought that they were a mainly criminal group or policitcal society, but I should have known to look on the Yukon site. Very interesting stuff. Thanks once again, man.

    To John, Yes you are right an art is an art and it's origen is not important, a point that i was trying to make in terms what i was saying before about where it is taught doesn't change its name. The techniques are important in categorizing a martial art, however, otherwise we'd just call all martial arts fighting. But yes, you're right, philosophically and a definate good point to make.
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    Default oops

    Sorry, I forgot to mention that the post about the wing chun was for brian owens, not to john conely.
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    Default oops again

    Victor smith, the second reply was to you, not john, about the names and origens, sorry im at work and i got confused with the names. I apologize, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...I said it was his style of wing chun, not a style of wing chun...
    Yes, that's what you said, and it's incorrect.

    It was Bruce's style of Gung Fu; but it was not "his style of Wing Chun."

    Whether you say "his style of Wing Chun" or "a style of Wing Chun" you're still saying the same thing -- that it's a system within the system of Wing Chun. That's simply not true.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Sorry...

    I don't want to offend you, how would you like to define it, Brian? I am not a practitioner of chinese martial arts and am afraid that I am not very knowledgeable about Bruce Lee's arts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    I don't want to offend you, how would you like to define it, Brian? I am not a practitioner of chinese martial arts and am afraid that I am not very knowledgeable about Bruce Lee's arts.
    All he is saying is that Jun Fan Gungfu isn't a subset of Wing Chun, which is pretty much true as far as I know. Didn't Lee synthesize alot of stuff (western boxing, Filipino arts etc.) outside of Wing Chun to form Jun Fan?

    Anyway I don't think you're offending anyone's style, but rather someone is pointing out factual errors in your argument.

    I got your point and all but perhaps it was just a poor analogy to use Jun Fan.

    Anyway I'm gonna reverse the course of things a bit and ask why Uechi Ryu wouldn't be Karate.

    Why wouldn't it be? I think it's questionable to say there are definitive black and white characteristics distinguishing different TMA when you get to the heart of it, so political squabbling aside, as long as it isn't couched in some ridiculous origin story or fake history, i'm personally willing to let people call their art what they want to, Uechi-Ryu included.

    If some feel that it's more appropriate to call it "second generation" whatever, that's ok too.
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 23rd June 2008 at 07:45.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Default what I was originally concerned about was...

    See, all the sources that I had read about Uechi ryu described the founder as learning fujian crane and then teaching his own version, slightly modified in stance and application, but he was an okinawan and he taught it in Okinawa. Shotokan is japanese, not okinawan, but it is still karate because of the kinds of techniques used in it and the principles, not only that it was based on a chinese martial art and the people added a gi and belt system to it, that's not what karate is. I can consider Ed Parker's Karate karate even though it was not invented in okinawa, the location doesn't make the martial art. By the way I just picked Ed parker's kempo karate out of the air, and have never seen it before, so if it is actually not a real karate style but something else, excuse me, I have never seen its techniques in person. So, that said, it is not okinawa that makes karate, it's the kinds of techniques along with the cultural background used. Karate is rooted in fujian chinese martiaal arts, it was then mixed with both okinawan traditional training methods and okinawan local martial arts disciplines of the time, they did have their own fightin methods, too you know. If a chinese martial art was all that was needed to make karate then all karate would be kung fu, or vice versa. Neither statement is true, however. Now, what I was asking before involved the fact that I had never seen any other element of another influence in the sources written about uechi ryu besides the fact that he himself made very small changes to it. Which, if that was all there was to it, would mean that it was actually kung fu taught locally in okinawa, using the japanese gi. Which makes it kung fu and not karate. However, if there were other influences, then it could be karate, and that was what I wanted to know. I remember that I read somewhere that there was a similar controversy about it by other karate organizations somewhere a while ago, but the source at the moment has failed to return to me. I would have inserted it by now if it had. Anway, that is why I had said that it might not be karate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...I am not a practitioner of chinese martial arts and am afraid that I am not very knowledgeable about Bruce Lee's arts.
    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...By the way I just picked Ed parker's kempo karate out of the air, and have never seen it before, so if it is actually not a real karate style but something else, excuse me, I have never seen its techniques in person. ...
    If I might be so bold; it would probably be better to make your point(s) by arguing from that which you know, rather than that which you do not. It keeps things clear and reduces unwanted tangents.

    (By coincidence, you picked two arts that I have briefly been involved with. What'r the odds?)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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