Tactical Decision Exercise

[Jeff Cook]

Neil, you really are better at coming up with these, but I'll give it a shot!

This actually happened in Florida recently. Let's hear how you would handle it.

An off-duty officer is at a department store. A female suspect shoplifts, runs out the door with store security in pursuit. The off-duty officer apprehends her in the parking lot. As he is trying to get control of her, the female's boyfriend pulls up in a vehicle, grabs her through the vehicle window, and tries to wrestle her away from the officer and pull her into the vehicle. A bystander assists the officer in trying to maintain control of the female as the boyfriend is trying to pull her through the window of the vehicle.

The vehicle starts to roll away as they are still wrestling over the female. The bystander at this point lets go of the female, as the car is pulling away. The off-duty officer continues to try to pull her back out of the vehicle, as the vehicle picks up speed.

He pulls his sidearm, identifying himself as an off-duty officer, and commanding that the driver stop the vehicle and release the female. The driver does not stop.

At this time, the officer fires his weapon, striking the male driver in the head (grazing wound) and in the arm. The driver pulls over, both are arrested.

The officer fired because he felt his life was in danger due to the moving vehicle.

What would you have done?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu


[This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-07-2000).]

[Kit LeBlanc]

Let go.

Kit LeBlanc

[Jeff Cook]

Me too, Kit.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Neil Hawkins]

It's unanimous!

I may decide to shoot at the tyre as I'm close enough and the vehicle is moving slowly but that would depend on bystanders, possible co-lateral damage, whatever, plus if he lost control in the parking lot with her hanging out the window, people could get hurt. Best bet is let them go then unleash the dogs.

The main thing is get the license plate, get descriptions, get help.

I'll post one later this week, I've had one waiting for E-Budo to come back, but hadn't got around to it yet! I'm glad you think they're useful.

Regards
Neil

PS. Jeff, did you get my e-mail about Hojojutsu, I never got a response.

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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[Jeff Cook]

Neil,

I'm an idiot, and I apologize. I went back and checked, and yes, I did get your email. For some idiotic reason I neglected to answer due to forgetfulness. I will respond from work tomorrow.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[kagebushi]

Neil & Jeff, your hojojutsu/bondage affairs belong in the japanese XXX section ( just kidding guys).

Neil,

NEVERshoot at a driving vehicle. It is liability suicide, and you never get away with it. Bad,bad idea...

PS: Jeff don`t be to hard on yourself, after all you were busy putting out sparks in other forums...( sorry there is no guilty look smiley)

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Mark Brecht

[This message has been edited by kagebushi (edited 06-08-2000).]

[kagebushi]

Jeff,

one question, was the "off duty officer", there as a customer, or was he performing a security service. It has nothing to do, with the point of the story, but rather with another topic i would like to debate in the future.



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Mark Brecht

[Daniel Pokorny]

I cannot believe this officer would actually fire his weapon in this situation. This is totally ludicrous. Is the possibility of actually killing someone warranted over a shoplifting charge? Not to mention this officer putting himself, and the civi trying to assist, in harms way.

Let her go, call it in .... they can run but they can't hide, for long anyway!

Daniel Pokorny

[Kit LeBlanc]

Neil,

Gotta agree with Mark on shooting the tires. Do that and the driver will have LESS control of his vehicle making it more dangerous for you (the officer). And it is liability suicide. .

Kit LeBlanc

[M Clarke]

Hi. Hope you don't mind if I jump in on this for my very first post? How was the guy holding her? Was it one arm with the other driving the vehicle? If so, when it is apparent that you aren't going to immediatley get her out of his grasp, I'd release the girl, presumably the bystander will keep her busy enough that she won't immediately stick you in the guts, then go for the driver before the car picks up momentum. Stick your thumb in under his ear. Takes a second for him to reflex, release the girl, you release him, he grabs the steering wheel again. Maybe it would work may be it wouldn't. I think that is a better option than trying to shoot him.

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Mike Clarke
Kufudokan

[Neil Hawkins]

Welcome Mike, nice option but to me one second close to a moving vehicle is too much!

And, guys I did say that shooting was an option not my preference, and I listed all the things you brought up as considerations. If the carpark was empty and he was still going slowly I might do it, but option number 1 is still let them go, get desciptions, get help!

Neil

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The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

[PYRO]

Too much risk, let them go.
Do not shoot the tires. A ricochet could kill an innocent bystander. Even if you hit the tire the bullet can ricochet after penetrating the tire. Dead bystanders are a bad thing .

[Rhomyn Escalante]

I think it is a question of geography. If you are in a city that starts with the word 'New' (i.e. New York, New Orleans) go ahead and shoot the guy. Any city that starts with 'Los' (i.e. Los Angeles) shoot the nearest non-minority representative male. Any other city in the U.S. shoot the woman. Any city in the world shoot the vehicle and or any public transportation vehicle in the surrounding area, or a building. Except France, there shoot any waiter.

[Cady Goldfield]

Ah, so this is what you're doing during your week of self-banishment from Bugeiswordforum.com? Sheesh.

[Bridger Dyson-Smith]

A little off subject, but here in Wichita we recently had a situation similar to the original post, only no initial gunfire. Several squad cars were called in, and a high speed chase through busy streets insued. Ultimately, the shoplifter killed a couple. Guess who drew the heat...the police. Might have save some time if an officer could have shot out a tire or some such. Although after thinking about it, I guess that might be pretty hard, eh?

Bridger Dyson-Smith