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Thread: The secret of ki, life, and asian martial arts.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Mr. Lanza,
    You asked for thoughts from people much more experienced in the martial arts than you. You then proceeded to argue with those thoughts. If you feel that it's all so wonderful and magical, go track down one of these fellows and give them money. They'll be more than happy to take your money and "teach" you all about magical ki power, no touch knock-outs, and disappearing elephants. If you are expecting anyone here to endorse your desire to learn magic and tell you it's a good idea, then I believe you're wasting everyone's time.

    Just my opinion though.
    I believe that Mr. Lanza has fallen into one of those great Martial arts quandry that some of us experience as we are growing in our art(s). This is one of those things that may require the great walkabout. We decipher along the way those things which are true or false depending on where our life experiences take us and the people we interact with. I have experienced Ki power but I also have encountered so called masters with alot of smoke and mirrors.
    I am sure that that Truth is a relative concept so therefore my truth may not be your truth and vice versa. I spent a period of 8 years investigating this concept for myself. I have taken what I have needed and ditched the rest. The walkabout can have tremendous results and yield great truths to the practitioner who is willing to embarc on the journey while always being mindful of charlatans.
    What I have found to be my truth is that I like it the old fashioned way- hands on with a bit of zing (ki) in the technique. Not everyone is succeptible to no touch techniques, so what are you going to do when you get clocked in the face as you are waving your hands to throw the guy accross the room?!?!?!?!
    Don't get me wrong, internal development is critical in martial arts training, but one must also forge the body as well to connect to a strong mind.

    I have still yet to encounter someone who can perform a no touch KO on me in seminars or training.

    "Boards don't hit back" -Bruce Lee
    Words to live by
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    I have never seen anybody break 15 bricks by tapping on them, it's not like he broke a couple. It was obviously a tap, there was no real shoulder or tricep thrown into this.
    No shoulder or tricep but he is basically throwing his whole body in it and pressing with his hand, look at when he warms up and how quickly he moves then look at how long he stays on the brick when he actually breaks it. the reason it looks like they break before he strikes it is because they do. he's leaning on it and it's starting to break from his weight then he knocks it down to finish the reaction and break the rest, this is fine because it's not part of the guiness record so odds are they didn't mbother getting a specific quality of blocks like guiness requires for his next trick which is just getting them broken on himself.
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...Also, the tai chi video is from a center for buddhistic studies, why would they risk dirtying their name for parlor tricks?
    In many cases, the people involved believe in what they are doing. They're just ill informed on science (or delusional). Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, for example, believed that invisible rays eminating from his body allowed him to sense intruders. Today we would say that he had a hightened sense of awareness even when sleeping, coupled with very good hearing, etc., but that there are no "invisble rays." That doesn't mean that O-sensei wasn't a great man deserving great respect.

    Fervent belief in a thing doesn't make the thing real. That doesn't make the believer a liar, though.

    Other times, it's misunderstanding of what's being seen. Asian concepts don't always have clear translations into the English language, and so concepts become distorted.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Mr. Owens and Jitsu, that was great.

    Great and wonderful answers from the both of you. To Mr. Smith, well I think it a bit presumptuous to say or believe that you are more experienced in martial arts than anyone, I don't. I do what I do and I feel that everyone goes on a different journey with the same destination. I've tried about seven different martial arts in my life, and have competed and am recently more interested in developing more the spiritual side of my martial arts. To Kyushenka, I was being a devil's advocate, for anyone who believes that what everyone says is right, would be wrong, as history has proven. Blacks weren't allowed to go to church 80 years ago because they supposedly were not men, people killed the jews in wwII because everyone said it was ok, we all thought the world was flat once too. Maybe you should rethink your tone and answer. I checked with the qigong research center and they said that they never heard of such a thing or saw it. Frankly, I believe that we can do alot with our chi, I use as an example sifu ku yu cheung, who killed a horse with a single blow, but the horse looked fine on the outside, while his insides were completely destroyed, as mentioned in the tao of gung fu by bruce lee. I also look to the public consensus history in china who recorded the event, and say he broke 15 bricks by slapping the top of it. I believe that. I don't believe what the videos show to my conclusion. However, on one's spiritual journey, as all true martial artists eventually embark on, one should be wary of smoke and mirrors as was said by the two fine gentlement i mentioned above. I agree with them, and I state my true opinion. I started this post in order to get opinions and experiences from those who have seen things that I haven't. Thank you once again.
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    an interesting article to read about chi is here. http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html it explains the period when tcm became popular and a few of chi related things. also here is a chinese student of "qi gong" who infiltrated several groups of "masters" and proved the fakery used http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html
    Last edited by Baio; 2nd July 2008 at 04:31.
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
    Owner www.korisuya.com Ninjutsu tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...tao of gung fu by bruce lee. ...
    Would that be Gung Fu: Philisophical Art of Self Defense (his first, but little known book), or Tao of Jeet Kun Do (His later, but better known, book)?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default My friend has the book,

    I will pass by his place later and let you know.
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    Brendan Lanza

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    To Mr. Smith, well I think it a bit presumptuous to say or believe that you are more experienced in martial arts than anyone, I don't.
    I now see why you are having such a difficult time, since it seems that you don't really read what people write. Please re-read my prior post and point out where I stated that I was more experienced than anyone. I've no interest in arguing with you sir, feel free to believe whatever you wish.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Default Punching out

    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    To Kyushenka, I was being a devil's advocate, for anyone who believes that what everyone says is right, would be wrong, as history has proven. Blacks weren't allowed to go to church 80 years ago because they supposedly were not men, people killed the jews in wwII because everyone said it was ok, we all thought the world was flat once too. Maybe you should rethink your tone and answer.
    Should I take it that this is meant for me? Ah well, it would appear that your queries are not genuine (your cup is full, neh?)- no need to go further.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  10. #25
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    "It would appear that you ...don't wish to be swayed from your held beliefs. If you are soliciting geniune reaction, the fact that there is consensus about what you are posting... well, one could draw some information from that"

    So, what you're telling me is be quiet listen to what the other three people said, as if that makes the answer to my question obvious because a few other people say one thing. Do you really think that could fill anyone's cup, sir? I don't mean to offend you but a little more substance to an argument is usually needed for me and i always give the benefit of the doubt to the underdog as it is that they ave always had some element of truth to them. Baio used some nice articles for his advocation for instance. You also say that they were my beliefs when I clearly had asked for opinions on it in the first place. I always say something, ask a question, provide reason for belief in it, ad get opinions, then i form a belief, which i just stated in my post that I agree with Mr. Owens ad Jitsumaia, so obviously my cup wasn't full, was it?
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    "Mr. Lanza,
    You asked for thoughts from people much more experienced in the martial arts than you. You then proceeded to argue with those thoughts. If you feel that it's all so wonderful and magical, go track down one of these fellows and give them money. They'll be more than happy to take your money and "teach" you all about magical ki power, no touch knock-outs, and disappearing elephants. If you are expecting anyone here to endorse your desire to learn magic and tell you it's a good idea, then I believe you're wasting everyone's time.

    Just my opinion though."


    You first say that I argued with those who are more experienced than I, so I merely pointed out that I was looking for those with different experiences from myself. Every ma is good at something and can do better at something else. I know one guy who never learned a martial art but spent his childhood sweeping people, and became very good at it. He met a friend of mine who does muay thai ad got sweeped on a number of occasions during their sparring match. This is regardless of the fact that the muay thai fighter had be practicing for two ad a half years, had competed, and was quite good for his level. Once again it is presumptuous to say that someone is more experienced than another, and it is presumptuous to say that I was planning to pay money for what you say i believe in, which is a magical power and disappearing elephants. SO, I don't want to argue with you either, but you're making it awfully hard sir.

    "I had asked some people about this and said that it was actualy possibile given the laws of quantum physics. Supposedly we're all made of energy and have more considerable control over this energy than we know, we just need t excercise it. however, i do know that there are many frauds out there doing what you say that they are doing."

    I related my question to sciece, not disappearing elephants nor magic, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ..."I had asked some people about this and said that it was actualy possibile given the laws of quantum physics. ...I related my question to sciece, not disappearing elephants nor magic, thanks.
    I'll be the first to admit that I'm no Max Plank or Niels Bohr (although I did study under one of the latter's students, Nancy Howe), but I have to say that I'm not aware of anything in quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, or unified field theory that would explain throwing people without touching them, etc.

    I am aware of principles of psychology and of legerdemain that would explain it, however.

    Such stunts have more to do with dissappearing elephants than with dark body radiation, in my opinion.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default quantum mechanics

    I have studied quite a bit of quantum mechanics, actually, because it relates to my religious beliefs, which involve science. In quantum mechanics the quantum atom, as opposed to the newtonian atom, is invisible. We and everything in our world and our universe is made out of energy. Not all energy can be seen by our two eyes, which are quite limited actually, to only 2 and 3 dimensional objects. There are many more dimensions than that, but I don't want this to go into that kind of discussion. We use this technology to make machines which measure energy, like x-ray machines. There is even a machine that has been invented here in asia that supposedly measures your chakras, said to be the source of chi, if the science of acupuncture isn't good enough for you. Just because western science hasn't proven acupuncture doesn't mean that it isn't science, i for one am a witness to its effects. There are so many things that western medicine hasn't proven, and it hasn't been able to disprove acupuncture nor explain its effect either. Most try to say that it's endorphins only, but that actually isn't possible. It also isn't placebo for people have been cured while not having been conscious to have a placebo. Anyway, this is also not the point of my discussion. There is reasonable enough evidence to explain that we have and can use chi. Tai Chi has always used the philosophy that the body is united, not separate in parts, it is one entity, not arms, legs, a head and body, but one piece altogether. Now, if you apply quantum energy theory you will find that this is correct, we are one piece of energy. We even have memories stored in others places other than our brain, supposedly if you cut off a toe you will lose some memory, but actually your energy is surrounding your body and will still be there when your body is gone, energy is never destroyed just transferred (quantum law). Now, that's why if you cut off your toe you will have a phantom toe. Anyway, if we are energy and we have energy (when you get tired you sleep and generate more energy for your body, making you feel more refreshed in the morning) and we can use our energy to heal ourselves and hurt others, then it is plausable, not proven though and I've never seen it, that we could generate enough energy to make someone feel it without touching them physically, especially since our energy extends beyond our skin. Now throwing people across the room may be too much, but making them feel positive and negative energy may be possible, which (without going into too much details) can hurt someone or heal them. It goes to belief on this one, because it hasn't been proven in a case study, however scientifically plasuible, with no disappearing elephants.
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    Wow, that last post was so rambling and wide-ranging that it's hard to know where to start, without dissecting it line-for-line. I will say that your understanding of quantum mechanics seems to be deeply flawed.

    It is not "quantum energy" that causes amputees to feel phantom limbs, but rather entirely explicable reactions in the nervous system. And what's this "chakra measurement machine"? Do you have sources? If chakras can be observed and measured they can be related back to human physiology and therefore explained. That would be cool.

    But all of this is way off-topic. Ultimately, your whole position can be summed up in your last sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    It goes to belief on this one, because it hasn't been proven in a case study
    All I suggest is that you (temporarily if need be) turn off your belief in order to ask some critical questions: why is it that ki/chi martial arts tricks can only be applied in controlled environments on willing participants? Why can't they be replicated in experiments? Why is there no scientific evidence? Why is everyone so sceptical? And please apply Occam's Razor - a martial arts master faking a demonstration on willing stooges is a *much* simpler explanation than a mysterious (quantum or otherwise) force that no-one can describe, demonstrate or explain.

    But go ahead, believe if you want to. Personally I think there are far more worthwhile paths to take in the martial arts - but if channelling your ki is what you are in to, then good luck to you. Just don't start paying anyone money.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIjib...eature=related
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    ...Just because western science hasn't proven acupuncture doesn't mean that it isn't science...
    The difference is that properly controlled studies have proven that accupuncture (and accupressure, which I practice) actually have measurable effects that go beyond placebo or psychosomatic effects, even if the exact mechanism isn't known.

    But knocking people out and/or throwing them without contact doesn't work in controlled experiments. It has been shown time and time again to work only on persons who are -- consciously or subconsciously -- willing accomplices. In cases where it's not outright fakery, it's easy to see that it's just a form of hypnosis or suggestability at work.

    It's not just a lack of proof, it's positive disproof.

    But here's the thing: you've shown videos of a person doing a breaking demonstration and said it showed ki at work, and we've pointed out that it's simple physics at work.

    We've seen videos of people jumping around like monkeys when someone waves his hands, and we've explained that it's the power of suggestion.

    But since you don't want to listen, and keep coming up with counters to our answers, why are you even here? It would probablt be more appropriate for you to take your "belief" somewhere other than a board dedicated to traditional Japanese martial arts, because this discussion is clearly going to go nowhere fast on E-Budo.

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