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Thread: Lost Koryu? Lost Kamon?

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    Default Lost Koryu? Lost Kamon?

    Guys & girls,

    Two questions:

    1) Does anyone know of any figures about how many koryu existed pre-WWII and how many survived the war? I know it could be construed as a very sensitive subject, but I am genuinely curious about this.

    2) Was the omote manji or ura manji ever used as kamon? If so, does it survive today or was it outlawed with the American occupation on 1945 due to its use by the Nazi party (swastika)?

    Apologies in advance if anyone disagrees with me asking such things.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    2) Was the omote manji or ura manji ever used as kamon? If so, does it survive today or was it outlawed with the American occupation on 1945 due to its use by the Nazi party (swastika)?
    Well I have seen the Manji on numerous maps from before and after the war and also recent ones uisng the Manji to denote a Buddhsit temple.


    I also saw some people wearing the manji as a kamon on their Kimono and this Kamon can be ordered as far as I know when you buy a custom kimono.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

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    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27 View Post
    I'm sorry I don't follow your meaning. The link you show is a manji not a swastika.
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    I'm sorry I don't follow your meaning. The link you show is a manji not a swastika.
    Brainfart..I meant manji.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27 View Post
    Brainfart..I meant manji.
    ...but a manji and a swastika are different. Not quite sure what you are getting at.
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    There's this manji kamon, although the site doesn't list a family with it.
    http://eps.crest-japan.net/pattern/index_en.php

    A few minutes later...
    Aha! It is indeed the afore mentioned Hachisuka crest.

    http://www.sengoku-expo.net/design/E.../018-m01a.html

    Also found this on Japanese Wikipedia
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    ...but a manji and a swastika are different. Not quite sure what you are getting at.
    Really? I thought manji was the Japanese term for a swastika?
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Really? I thought manji was the Japanese term for a swastika?
    In depictions of the Nazi era 'swastika' the tails are shown rotating clockwise



    Whereas the manji Fred referenced has the tails rotating anti-clockwise



    Yes, I know that there are many exceptions to this 'rule'. However I find it's a simple enough 'rule' of thumb to denote the difference. My thumb anyway
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    I have a number of ornaments/artwork from Hinduism in my home in both directions. Even the Japanese manji has 'omote' and 'ura' (see my original post).
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Funny thing symbols, most folk don't notice there are 2 different versions of yin yang kicking around, always amuses me when i see a website promoting the virtues of harmony and flow etc and heading it with the destructive cycle version....
    Jim Boone

    Flick Lives!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Guys & girls,
    Does anyone know of any figures about how many koryu existed pre-WWII and how many survived the war? I know it could be construed as a very sensitive subject, but I am genuinely curious about this.
    Scott, I haven't seen any figures myself here, but one way to establish an estimate would be to look at the number of koryu bujutsu still existant in the period you define as "pre-WWII" in prefectural physical education/budo history books for each of Japan's 47 prefectures, and compare this to resources known today. You'll doubtlessly find there has been quite an attrition.
    Daniel Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    ...but a manji and a swastika are different.
    How so?

    "Manji" is simply a romanization of the Japanese name -- 萬字 --for a tetraskelion cross, and "Swastika" is one romanization for the Sanskrit name -- स्वस्तिक -- for the same symbol.

    Though seldom used any more, because of the unfortunate association in many people's mind with the Nazi abuse of the symbol, the swastika is actually a kanji: 卐
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 15th October 2008 at 11:17.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Lots of schools....

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Guys & girls,

    Two questions:

    1) Does anyone know of any figures about how many koryu existed pre-WWII and how many survived the war? I know it could be construed as a very sensitive subject, but I am genuinely curious about this.

    2) Was the omote manji or ura manji ever used as kamon? If so, does it survive today or was it outlawed with the American occupation on 1945 due to its use by the Nazi party (swastika)?

    Apologies in advance if anyone disagrees with me asking such things.
    1) There is a figure used widely to count the number of koryu jujutsu schools at the end of the Edo era; Tomiki cited it, Kano cited it, and I am too lazy to look it up. Something like 179 jujutsu schools, and many more kenjutsu schools, etc. I've seen reference to the original source of the document, which was a compendium of ryuha; I've seen similar scrolls, but never bought them because they're simply lists of school names. I don't know how many the Butokukai acknowledged, which would have been pretty authoritative, as it was recognized by the Ministry of Education.

    2) AFAIK, no. First, the Occupation was not 'American', it was the Allied powers, but the Occupation authorities would've quickly understood it was a traditional symbol without political meaning, and presumably briefed their troops as such. Much brighter than some of today's European governments, but then again I didn't live under Nazi rule or occupation. And, it's all over the place even today; e.g., it's the common map designation for a Buddhist temple, and you can spot it inside temples. Only within the last year or so did the Shorinji Kempo bunch give it up as their symbol in Japan, a group practices in one of the facilities I use, and it was always funny to watch the reactions of Western visitors when they saw the 'swastika'.
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Guys & girls,

    Two questions:

    1) Does anyone know of any figures about how many koryu existed pre-WWII and how many survived the war? I know it could be construed as a very sensitive subject, but I am genuinely curious about this.
    Documentation of that magnitude might be hard to find however, I was able to find a list of ryu-ha that were employed by Hosokawa-han. The list on the left side shows the names of the individual ryu-ha, in the middle its last head master of the time of the Bakamatsu/Meiji period, and if the ryu is listed again on the right its means that it still exists. Lastly ryu-ha are seperated based on type (Kenjutsu, Sojutsu, Kyujutsu, ect..). In all there were a total of 66 ryu of which only 18 surrived to present day (note: I did not count Hontai Yoshin Ryu or Daito Ryu because they came to Kumamoto after the Meiji period).

    Here is the link:

    http://www.tamakina.ne.jp/kobudou/hennsenn.htm

    Its not much but I hope it helps
    Jeffrey Karinja

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