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Thread: Firearms-Is it Truly a Martial Art?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    Yes. I agree. But I was also pointing out, that some did not have such a background. It could be said, that since martial arts are a set of acquired skills, such skills are versatile to be applied in other things. What say you?
    Aren't we comparing oranges and oranges?

    Tactical shooting includes ALL the factors that Nathan noted. It IS a martial art, though a modern one. Many of the best ways, or at least better ways, to move as human beings are going to be the same or similar.

    I had the same experience Nathan did. But I have a friend and veteran of multiple shootings, including one on the move against a laterally moving target, who moves similarly without benefit of martial "art" background. Its still martial movement...

    That friend has observed that martial artists seem to pick up moving "properly" with firearms better than others.

  2. #32
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    Define Martial Movement;

    For that matter, anything involving the human physical can be considered as martial movement
    Richard Scardina

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post

    For that matter, anything involving the human physical can be considered as martial movement
    No, I don't think so. This is so broad as to render it essentially meaningless and open to all kinds of "principle"-y interpretations....kinda the way people talk about ki.

    This is increasingly apparent with weapons. Especially functioning with them in the real world versus the dojo or the range, where one must move in and about others - innocents and other armed comrades - while armed and prepared to address a lethal threat.

    Some movement - and some martial movement - is better than other kinds of movement.

  4. #34
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    Hmmmn...Could same physical movement be applied in other activities such as athletics????
    Richard Scardina

  5. #35
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    Goes to show that a Martial Arts topic can REALLY be a broad one..

  6. #36
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    Kyudo is a martial art. I used to shoot trap and I was on a precission rifle team in college. Yes they are martial arts. As much as Kyudo is.

    In Trap Shooting you even have ranks.
    Master
    AA
    A
    B
    C
    D
    E
    Last edited by CEB; 11th March 2015 at 14:46.
    Ed Boyd

  7. #37
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    The breakdown on this topic is, to me, a rehash of the -do vs -jutsu debate. If what someone is looking for is an isolated practice of great concentration, repeatability, zen-like focus, etc. long range high-power competitions are a kind of modern hojutsu in so many ways.

    When it comes to the gunjutsu side of things, the art of gunfighting is alive and well in the USSOCOM community, and with certain units within law enforcement. Watching someone like Travis Haley demonstrate & describe something as simple as malfunction clearance, to lean-out shooting from cover, it is hard to imagine that what he is doing is not a martial art. It is far more martial than most things you'd see in 99% of dojo around the country. There are plenty of folks like him, teaching the sum-total of a decade of warfighting.

    It might not look like something you'd see at an Asian Cultural Festival, but make no mistake that there are men at the top of their game training specific skills with firearms with all the intensity, focus, and technique that some would bring to swordsmanship.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by No1'sShowMonkey View Post
    It might not look like something you'd see at an Asian Cultural Festival, but make no mistake that there are men at the top of their game training specific skills with firearms with all the intensity, focus, and technique that some would bring to swordsmanship.
    A group that I am aware of practices kata a la karate - the teachers background is karate based - and they d so in keikogi with kydex holsters...this is to my way of thinking kinda missing the point: they have adopted specific Asian clothing and terminology (in some cases incorrectly) and organizational practices in order to make firearms training more "martial artsy." Despite the founder's legitimate background and experience in OIS-es, its a matter of trappings over substance, and not being able to translate concepts and principles of martial discipline to a separate but equally martial discipline. Can't be a martial art if we aren't wearing pajamas and speaking foreign terms.

    So what to do to make the point that it is a martial art?

    I just proceed as usual now. Instead of folks wearing hakama but strapped with Glocks, and instead of explaining East Asian martial principles to an audience looking at you with bovine eyes. you simply find modern equivalents and explain them in that way. When I do teach firearms for personal protection, I don't tell them that most of the stuff I am teaching in terms of tactics and strategy has direct correlations to heiho/hyoho: just using different words for things like "kata" and "maai" and "sen" and so on... because most modern training IS all about kata and maai and sen and so on....

    With a few people over the years, those steeped in martial traditions but wanting to learn firearms, I will use the same terms and concepts because they get it. I can use the term kiai directly related to addressing threats with a firearm and having nothing to do with a shout, and demonstrate exactly what I mean and they understand and make the connection to their martial training. I was able to do this with the soke of one system who was not highly experienced with handguns - from his classical sword system to modern personal protection firearms - and it allowed in a couple instances a direct transmission of meaning that using tactical gobbledy gook in a language foreign to him would not have.

    In large part that language was martial arts...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    A group that I am aware of practices...in keikogi with kydex holsters...
    I must admit that that image cracks me up!
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  10. #40
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	11162Since the 16th century historians & experts in Japan consider the art of Houjutsu as a martial art. The Morishige Ryu school of the Tamizou Den Shimazu ha is still active and taught today in Japan & Australia (Oukatai). The headmaster is Shimazu Kenji.
    Matt White

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    I think if you look into history the Japanese did in fact make it a martial art. I know Jeff Hall has devised a martial art around the pistol.

    Duane
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ID:	11163 Correct. The firearm has played a major part in many battles throughout Japan since the 16th Century. This school/tradition called Morishige Ryu is several centuries old and is still taught and practise in Japan today. They use the Hinawaju (long rifle), Tanzutsu (pistol) and Oozutsu (Canon). It is also taught in Australia by the Oukatai group.
    Matt White

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