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Thread: Shintoryu kenjutsu

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    Default Shintoryu kenjutsu

    Are there any practitioners of Katori Shintoryu or Kashima Shintoryu who have seen or studied the "Kasumi" Shintoryu kenjutsu of Shindo Musoryu?

    I'm curious as to whether the kenjutsu of Muso Gonnosuke bears any resemblance to the kenjutsu of the two ryuha he is said to have mastered/learned.
    Respectfully,
    Johnathan Pierson

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    Quote Originally Posted by PiersonJ View Post
    Are there any practitioners of Katori Shintoryu or Kashima Shintoryu who have seen or studied the "Kasumi" Shintoryu kenjutsu of Shindo Musoryu?

    I'm curious as to whether the kenjutsu of Muso Gonnosuke bears any resemblance to the kenjutsu of the two ryuha he is said to have mastered/learned.
    Yes, no and yes .

    I'm not master practitioner of either, but on the surface there are no similarities between Katori and the "Kasumi" Shinto ryu. I've heard folks outside of SMR-jodo and Kasumi shinto ryu comment that the latter looks more Kashima-style than Katori-style.

    You can see some Shinto (Kasumi) ryu kenjutsu in this clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mH5Hvjp6V4
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    I, myself, do the Shintoryu kenjutsu from SMR, but I don't do Katori or Kashima Shintoryu. Thank you, because that gives me something new to go on.
    There seems to be this intertwining link following from the predecessor to Mugairyu, Yamaguchiryu which was created by a man who supposedly studied Kashima Shintoryu, among other styles.
    The fact that the Meishi ha branch of Mugairyu includes Shindo Musoryu seems to be returning to a central connection. One of history and philosophy.
    That or I'm thinking about martial arts too much.
    Respectfully,
    Johnathan Pierson

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    Quote Originally Posted by PiersonJ View Post
    Are there any practitioners of Katori Shintoryu or Kashima Shintoryu who have seen or studied the "Kasumi" Shintoryu kenjutsu of Shindo Musoryu?

    I'm curious as to whether the kenjutsu of Muso Gonnosuke bears any resemblance to the kenjutsu of the two ryuha he is said to have mastered/learned.
    Well, Draeger would probably be the best person to answer your question, but he ain't around anymore. Phil Relnick is a licensed instructor of Katori as well as a menkyo kaiden in Shindo Muso Ryu, so I would assume that he could give a decent answer to the question; I think that Larry Bieri of Finger Lakes Koryu also practices both, and maybe Quentin Chambers? None of these guys post on here, but you can find their contact information online.

    My own impression as someone who has watched a bit of all three is that whatever relation to the original two Gonnosuke's art had originally, all three have evolved in different directions. But then, take my opinion for what it is worth. Some accounts claim that Gonnosuke had training in what is now Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu; if that is true, then I don't see many outward similarities between what they do and what we do. Then again, I'm far from an expert even in the art that I study, and my opinions on any other arts aren't worth much.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PiersonJ View Post
    The fact that the Meishi ha branch of Mugairyu includes Shindo Musoryu seems to be returning to a central connection. One of history and philosophy.
    That or I'm thinking about martial arts too much.
    As far as I know the connection between the Meishi ha branch of Mugairyu and Shinto Musoryu comes only from the fact that Niina-gosoke studied it with Shiokawa-sensei for many years. The arts are based on sound principles and contains good and solid kata which provides an excellent complement to Mugairyu itself. Beyond that I don't think there's any significant historical connections between the two arts.

    I am by no means an expert on the subject and Ren will hopefully drop by soon and correct me. He's the one that "knows things" for real...
    Andreas Rasmussen

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    I realize that there's nothing historic in connection with the two, I was merely pondering a possible pre-generation link (assuming it as Kashima Shintoryu Gonnosuke studied). Seeing as it may strongly not be a possibility (Wikipedia has a tendency to sometimes be extremely accurate, despite not being able to use it on college papers) that ruins my entire assumption all together.

    Though (as I intended to make one huge post citing video evidence from Youtube, I surmised that to be a horrible idea in the long run) having watched Kashima Shinto, Kattori Shinto, and even some Kashima Shinden, I do see some links with regards to a few subtle stances and movements, nothing of which I could substantiate in a courtroom, but corroborates the idea that each successive style has not been completely devoid of principles and techniques from the original.
    Or possibly that such techniques and principles are the livelihood of any great swordsman, I don't know. I can only guess and hypothesize.
    Respectfully,
    Johnathan Pierson

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    This is what Pascal Krieger has to say about it in Jodo: The Way of the Stick:

    "It is impossible to say how the present Kenjutsu techniques taught along with the Shindo Muso-ryu evolved, or if they were formulated by Muso himself. It is clear that they are very different from the forms of the Katori Shinto-ryu as it exists today. It is said that this form of Shinto-ryu derives from the Matsumoto Bizen no Kami lineage and this may explain the difference."

    Don't know if that helps or not.

    Kevin Cantwell

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    Well assuming Kaminoda Senseis "Kasumi Shinto Ryu" research is correct then we do have a a much clearer lineage at least than before.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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