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Thread: Which style is this based on?

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    Default Which style is this based on?

    http://www.martialartsoftucson.com/v...deo=kenjutsu_1

    I ran into this group on youtube:

    And was interested on what people here thought if it? I like the video style, but to my uneducated sight, the kenjutsu looks like a blend of Aikiken, Iaido and a mix of maybe some koryu kenjutsu kata?
    Paul Greaves
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    The first seconds of sword-waving of that video is Katori Shinto Ryu iaijutsu..Or rather its based/ripped from KSR.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    The site is for "Martial Arts of Tucson"

    From the site here is what they say about the Jujutsu which they claim incorporates Kenjutsu and Iaijustu as part of the method.

    "JuJutsu: Arts of the Samurai

    The Samurai Arts of Shiden'issen Jujutsu are an original and diverse martial discipline of war which focuses on modern-practical self-defense and traditional sword arts. Jujutsu was a warriors art practiced by the Samurai of Japan, which evolved hundreds of such styles over the centuries. Shiden'issen Jujutsu's fighting method consists of throws, grappling, immobilizations, joint manipulations, submissions, kenjutsu and iaijutsu."

    Besides the jujutsu they offer Aikido, Tae kwon Do, Karate. They have the full meal deal, even a web shop. http://jujutsu.spreadshirt.com/us/US...x/index/page/1

    The FAQ's don't address the history of the system at all as far as I can tell.

    Doesn't look "traditional" but a modern mix of Japanese and Korean systems, with a very slick marketing person with some website design talent.

    Here is a link to some opinions: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67033

    Have a nice day

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    Yep, already looked at the website, very slick marketing, the modern jujutsu seemed effective enough, if not quite exactly the 'warriors art practiced by the Samurai.'

    I was really interested in how people viewed the kenjutsu, it looked a bit chambara to me, but I know very little about kenjutsu.

    Thanks for the effort Mr Sampson!
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

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    It is pretty much impossible to tell anything about their kenjutsu from the carefully edited vignettes in the video, other than the fact that it's flashy, and steals a bit from TSKSR. However this quote ...
    Shiden'issen Jujutsu is not a 'new' or 'made up' martial style. It is a culmination of Japanese Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and Jujutsu - the primary disciplines in which the Samurai trained in. Shiden'issen brang forth an original name unique to its dojo. In the same fashion different schools of the same / similar art in Japan are called, 'ryu.' Referring to a school of a specific martial discipline unique to that dojo. The reasoning behind this is that fact there are very few dojos worldwide that teach such a diverse style of Jujutsu. It needed its unique name to differentiate itself from other styles of Jujutsu.
    Tells me quite a bit about the school. (brang? what the heck is up with that!) That, and the fact that they are proud of the art's creator (but it's not a new art I tell you!) having "16 years of experience", tells me pretty much all I care to know about them.
    Paul Smith
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    Yes Paul, it should have been "done brung forth" in Texan.
    J. Nicolaysen
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    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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    Yes Paul, it should have been "done brung forth" in Texan.
    Exactly!!!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    I watched the video presentation and really liked it. Obviously, they're talented martial artists with excellent marketing skills. I have a background in classical swordsmanship and see nothing wrong with what they're doing.

    Here's a bit more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_npycHNuheY
    Last edited by Patrick McCarthy; 21st May 2009 at 04:17.
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy View Post
    I have a background in classical swordsmanship and see nothing wrong with what they're doing.[/url]
    I think the issue probably lies in that there is nothing on the site which explains where the kenjutsu or iaijutsu techniques are from, or indeed that mentions that the instructor (Ryan Maza) has any training in any JSA. I dare say some of it has been developed from Aikido sword techniques, as Maza's sensei is David Shanstrom, the chief Aikido instructor for the Tuscan Martial Arts.
    John Ranford
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy View Post
    I watched the video presentation and really liked it. Obviously, they're talented martial artists with excellent marketing skills. I have a background in classical swordsmanship and see nothing wrong with what they'r doing.
    classical swordsmanship (koryu) as it exists now (today's gendai world) is about preservation of a system and linage. I do not think you can divorce this aspect of Japanese culture and classical swordsmanship. If anyone is teaching a classical system as a classical system and they do not have express permission to teach that system from the Ryu or Ryu-ha in which they are a member then that's a bad thing in my book. It's disrespectful to the ligetimate system.

    I am not sure what is going on with these people. I do not know if they borrowed from or purely ripped off KSR (or some other classical school with a similar chiburi) or if they have permission to teach it or incorperate it into thier system. They very well might have authority to do this. But to call it "Classical" implies a linage and Ryu-ha. To call it "classically based" is more about marketing the system to people who are impressed with such stuff and might not have access to resources to find out if it is a legit classical system or a gendai system that is being sold to them as something else. I do not believe that just swinging a sword makes what you are doing "classical".

    I am not trying to start an argument here, or judge the people in question. I am just saying that 1. if it is a classical system, then there are several sources in Japanese and a few in English to verify that the system is "classical" i.e. there is an existant lineage that is documented and goes back at least before the Meiji Restoration. And 2. That if is it classical, permission to teach the system should exist, and that is usually written (mokuroku or menkyo type documents) or permission is regognized by members of other classical systems (it's still a small community really- especially in Japan). The web site doesn't say one way or the other as far as I can tell, or am interested enough to look. Perhaps someone who has trained with them can say who the teacher's teacher is/was and who that teacher's teacher is/was... back several generations. Now that's "classical".

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    I have no idea who these guys are - personally, I don't really care, nor do I care if they have "permission." I do, however, think they're wonderfully talented, much more so than some of the folks I've trained with, "who have had permission!" Unless they're misrepresenting themselves, and using bait and switch tactics [i.e., "we're teaching Yagyu Shinkage Ryu] I see nothing wrong with their proactive eclecticism.
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy View Post
    I have no idea who these guys are - personally, I don't really care, nor do I care if they have "permission." I do, however, think they're wonderfully talented, much more so than some of the folks I've trained with, "who have had permission!" Unless they're misrepresenting themselves, and using bait and switch tactics [i.e., "we're teaching Yagyu Shinkage Ryu] I see nothing wrong with their proactive eclecticism.
    There are a couple of problems with this. First, some of the stuff they do looks very much like Katori Shinto Ryu (or a bastardization thereof). Where did they learn Katori? If they learned it from a legitimate instructor, then they would have most likely been required to take keppan (blood oath) not to instruct without permission. So if they've turned around and started teaching on their own without permission then they would have violated that oath-- something that I doubt many of us would approve of.

    If they got their Katori knowledge from a source that didn't require them to take keppan, then what was that source? An instructor of a split-off line, perhaps? That raises an interesting series of questions-- does this guy know enough to be teaching, or has he just dabbled? Or have they just been watching Katori videos on youtube and learning to ape their movements? You can learn kata--or the crudest surface mechanics of them-- from the internet. You can learn to do the kata very well and put on a very impressive display from an outsider's point of view, the type of stuff that will really wow an audience. But there is a huge difference between learning to "dance" kata that you see in a video and truly building the skills that those kata were meant to convey. A lot of people who have never trained in a koryu just don't understand that difference-- they think that simply because they can do all of the movements that they see in the videos, do them fast and do them fluidly, that they are "doing" Katori. Having never done the kata under the supervision of a real instructor, having never been exposed to all the stuff going on beneath the surface, they don't have any idea how much they don't know.

    And so I worry about people who seem to be doing Katori knock-off or a knock-off of any other koryu. I worry that, however, skilled they may appear, there might be significant holes in their knowledge. I worry that their self-training might lack the deep understanding of potential safety problems that a true instructor could impart.

    Finally, I have reservations about "advertising" sword arts or making them "flashy" and "interesting" to appeal to an audience. But that's a matter of personal taste.
    David Sims

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    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy View Post
    I have no idea who these guys are - personally, I don't really care, nor do I care if they have "permission." I do, however, think they're wonderfully talented, much more so than some of the folks I've trained with, "who have had permission!" Unless they're misrepresenting themselves, and using bait and switch tactics [i.e., "we're teaching Yagyu Shinkage Ryu] I see nothing wrong with their proactive eclecticism.
    I agree, they look wonderful. Big deal.

    Koryu doesn't have anything to do with being wonderfully talented, or effective, because many of the Koryu ryu-ha are archaic and not about modern combative effectivness. It has everything to do with being legit. Talent, and flash, and what not does not make it something that it is not. Just because a guy draws a sword fast, doesn't make what he is doing koryu, it just means he is fast. He might be unbeatable. We are not arguing the value or effectiveness of what they are doing but... in my not so humble oppinion, those who teach Koryu without having permission in a form that is traditional to that ryu-ha in question is basically a thief, getting by on selling something that is not thiers to sell.

    Pat, even you have a lineage on your website. I don't care how good a fighter you are or how good a teacher you are in terms of your system. I am sure you are a fine exponent of karate and an excellent teacher (your reputation is well known.) But those things do not have anything to do with preserving your classical system and making sure that it continues into the future in an unadulterated way as possible. So, I am impressed that you are carrying on the classical system you belong to in a traditional way; legitimately!

    Respectfully,

    BRS
    Last edited by Bill Sampson; 22nd May 2009 at 01:05.

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    Thanks for addressing my comments. I'm happy to respond in kind.

    .... some of the stuff they do looks very much like Katori Shinto Ryu (or a bastardization thereof).

    So what? Is there a monopoly here in the 21st century on who can and who cannot use/take/borrow/incorporate, etc., liberally from whichever practices they wish to establish their own practice?

    Where did they learn Katori?

    I have no idea - nor do I care. They're not advertising TSKSR nor are they linking themselves to Otake or Sugino, TTBOMK.

    If they learned it from a legitimate instructor, then they would have most likely been required to take keppan (blood oath) not to instruct without permission. So if they've turned around and started teaching on their own without permission then they would have violated that oath-- something that I doubt many of us would approve of.

    I studied KSR [Sugino-ha] in Japan for many years, did not undergo the keppan formality and have been teaching independently since 1995 here in Oz, and could care less who approves. Should I commit seppuku?

    If they got their Katori knowledge from a source that didn't require them to take keppan, then what was that source? An instructor of a split-off line, perhaps?

    Both the Otake & Sugino camps market video/DVD on their practices - this alone would be enough for anyone to learn and incorporate unique features, such as our chiburi and noto. If not, then Youtube "Sensei" would suffice. The point being, folks can learn this stuff from many sources - the only people who care are the "Koryu" groups because it encroaches upon their turf, but only if someone who is not licensed nor part of a recognized lineage avertises to the contrary. In this case, I don't see this group advertising TSKSR, YSR, etc.

    That raises an interesting series of questions-- does this guy know enough to be teaching, or has he just dabbled? Or have they just been watching Katori videos on youtube and learning to ape their movements? You can learn kata--or the crudest surface mechanics of them-- from the internet. You can learn to do the kata very well and put on a very impressive display from an outsider's point of view, the type of stuff that will really wow an audience. But there is a huge difference between learning to "dance" kata that you see in a video and truly building the skills that those kata were meant to convey.

    Yep, I've heard all of this before --- even said/wrote it a few times, too --- and, for the most part, I agree. However, I doubt that can be said from what I've seen of these guys. I have no idea how competent the teacher is nor do I know his curriculum - I am only going by what "I" observed on two videos. That said, "I" was impressed.

    A lot of people who have never trained in a koryu just don't understand that difference-- they think that simply because they can do all of the movements that they see in the videos, do them fast and do them fluidly, that they are "doing" Katori. Having never done the kata under the supervision of a real instructor, having never been exposed to all the stuff going on beneath the surface, they don't have any idea how much they don't know.

    ?? Would you be kind enough to cite some of the, "A LOT of PEOPLE?"

    And so I worry about people who seem to be doing Katori knock-off or a knock-off of any other koryu. I worry that, however, skilled they may appear, there might be significant holes in their knowledge. I worry that their self-training might lack the deep understanding of potential safety problems that a true instructor could impart.

    Hmmm, okay, I thought we were talking about this guy. If we are [I am] I think who ever taught him should be congratulated - he/she did a fabulous job, IMO.

    Finally, I have reservations about "advertising" sword arts or making them "flashy" and "interesting" to appeal to an audience. But that's a matter of personal taste.

    It certainly is, and obviously it's one we don't share.
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
    http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com

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    I agree, they look wonderful. Big deal.

    No big deal - the question was publicly posted: "I ran into this group on youtube: And was interested on what people here thought if it?"

    I'm a subscriber here and I wanted to say, "what I thought." That's it. I think the guy is wonderfully talented. Moreover, and natural talent aside, I know exactly what kind of commitment and dedication to this tradition it takes to produce "his kind of skill." Additionally, being as fast as he is and a skillful, is no easy task and it, "does count for something," IMO. Additionally, I am confident that any [politically dispassionate] swordsman [in Japan or elsewhere] would say the same.

    Koryu doesn't have anything to do with being wonderfully talented, or effective, because many of the Koryu ryu-ha are archaic and not about modern combative effectivness. It has everything to do with being legit.

    Talent, and flash, and what not does not make it something that it is not. Just because a guy draws a sword fast, doesn't make what he is doing koryu, it just means he is fast. He might be unbeatable. We are not arguing the value or effectiveness of what they are doing but... in my not so humble oppinion, those who teach Koryu without having permission in a form that is traditional to that ryu-ha in question is basically a thief, getting by on selling something that is not thiers to sell.


    I'm sorry, is this guy advertising that he or his organization is teaching Koryu? If he is, I'd simply want to ask what his lineage is and who accredited him.


    Pat, even you have a lineage on your website. I don't care how good a fighter you are or how good a teacher you are in terms of your system. I am sure you are a fine exponent of karate and an excellent teacher (your reputation is well known.) But those things do not have anything to do with preserving your classical system and making sure that it continues into the future in an unadulterated way as possible. So, I am impressed that you are carrying on the classical system you belong to in a traditional way; legitimately!


    Bill, not sure I get exactly what you're saying here but thanks anyway. I respect tradition but that doesn't stop it from getting in the way of progress.
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
    http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com

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